Project Reality Forums

Right.

Since the last post on this was about 4 months ago, if the search function gave all the results, I'm reopening this thread for a suggestion to fix the attack choppers. The AH-64D should have fire and forget Hellfires for a gameplay test, and if it plays better (read: not get destroyed by tanks because lasing is too slow and no gun stabilisation), we can have all attack choppers with laser guided missiles to be lock-on to all armored targets. Something like how the attack choppers work in AiX mod would really work well.

I'm saying this because this is the only reasonable solution. Since lasers can't go at the speed of light and using the guided missiles is spammy and unrealistic, I don't see a point. You could make it that only the AH-64D would be fire and forget with a sure shot after lock and fire, but all other attack choppers would have the missile just fly straight until it hits something if you break the lock.

If you lase, hits beyond the VD should be possible. Spamming at an attack marker is just ridiculous. In essence, I'm asking for the current attack helicopters to stay as it is, but add in a "lock on" mode ala AiX mod. It would make attack helicopters less of a sitting duck if they need an accurate shot.

For PR 2.0 though, I'd definitely want to see the entire system made to be realistic. Have the lasing system be common place.

So either the lock on system or a fix to the lasers would be preferable.

and this would remove for the need of any skill from the gunner
seeing as they magically lock onto anything for 900 ft in the air .. UhNo thanks

alexaus wrote:and this would remove for the need of any skill from the gunner
seeing as they magically lock onto anything for 900 ft in the air .. UhNo thanks

Well if you actually got lasers working, there would be no real skill either. Just click, wait for a lock, fire.

Lasers are not projectiles that fall behind the aiming reticule. You lase with a quick click and you can fire away as the laser guides it.

This would be far easier if the camera was stabilized, but that's a BF2 engine limitation.

In other words, fixed helicopter gunning should arrive in PR 2 for sure.

Oh, and if it was realistic, the Apache would have fire and forget capability. The radar on the Apache should be more then just eye candy ??:

In essence, we find a way to stabilize the camera. Oh, and we fix the laser targeted and the laser guided mode.

But we can't because of engine limitations, so I'll take the lock on system, even if it's more gamey.

Well Combined Arms has a system to simulate gun stabilisation, where if you look at a tank or whatever for ~5 seconds it will lock on to it, but you lose the lock if your view moves too far away, so it is certainly not overpowered.

I think that is a real good idea.
Attack Helos are superior to ground vehicles and should be able to hit them while moving fast. To not destroy the teamwork you could add LOAL (Lock On After Launch), so there's still a use for infantry to lase.
At the other hand there should be a laser warning system for tanks and APCs to inform the crew when either infantry is lasing them or an attack helo has locked on them. And the smoke screen, you can deploy, should be able to break the lock.

uhm, as far as i remember, the gunner can drop his own lazes.

wookimonsta wrote:uhm, as far as i remember, the gunner can drop his own lazes.

Yea, but by the time the lazermarker arrive at the target you could have shot 3 hellfiremissiles instead, assuming the lazermarker actually hit the target at the first try.

I think the current a-chopper-system works well, but the new improved AA just made me laugh. I play a lot with helicopters and yesterday I installed .87 for the first time and tested it out.

As a AA guy on the ground I manage to kill the cobra 3/4 times. All I had to do was aim, lock and fire, boom went the cobra. The fourth time the helicrew knew where I was so they went sneaky with hydras, on their second try I just fired the AA missiles at their general direction where I knew they were and I scored a kill.


Kashan 32 as a gunner in the Apache.

Some guy on the MEC team with a portable AA finds us, he bring up his weapon, aims for 2 sec and fires, range was appr 500m, I saw when he fired, we dropped flares, missile hit us dead on. we had no chance.


I don't know why the air-assets keep getting stealth-nerfed like this. If you don't like them, just remove them.

It takes 20 min for them to spawn, 2 players to operate, -(10+2) tickets when lost and there are few of them. Takes a well trained team to operate it successfully, no lock on mechanics apart from the bad laze, Heli needs to fly relatively slow and steady for the gunner to be able to hit a moving target.

On the ground you have one guy, pick up a weapon, getting a lock and then just fire. no skill involved apart from not being spotted before he have a chance of firing his missile. if he dies, yea, cost his team like 1 ticket. and there are usually a lot of AA assets on a map with helis, every FOB can have one, 2 requstable kits, other a-helis. Not to mention every AT, H-AT, .50 cals on jeeps, MBTs, APCs, and AA-vehicles.


Lock-on hellfires would not solve the problem, only mitigate a symptom.

Lock on ATGMs would make attack helos deadlier regarding vehicles, reducing the time you stay in the AO. So it has nothing to do with evading AA.
But tbh I like that the AAs are so deadly. It allows them to serve well as an area denial weapon and make them less vulnerable to air attacks. It also feares the pilots of AAs.
That improves the stone, paper, scissor system without letting gunships become too overpowered.

As long we dont have BVR radars I cant see a problem to have lockon Hellfires.
Just keep the DLZ equal to view distance so the helicopter must enter into danger zone to fire.

Hunt3r wrote:Well if you actually got lasers working, there would be no real skill either. Just click, wait for a lock, fire.

Not much different than anything else. Firing direct fire weapons is the same procedure (aside from locking).

But really you can narrow the lock angle and increase the lock time which does make it difficult to attack targets.

I liked my solution which was to use the TV guided missile system without the independent crosshair and without the projectile camera. I'm not sure if they still feature it in Combined Arms; you can check it out in that mod.

I think Combined arms have it rigth with the flare and AA system. As CAS said an AA is 90% certain to take down a chopper.

and this would remove for the need of any skill from the gunner
seeing as they magically lock onto anything for 900 ft in the air .. UhNo thanks

13 seconds.



Modern aircraft CAN and DO have the equipment to lock onto points of heat or light contrast meaning tanks, aircraft, exhaust, and even infantry in some cases. So what if it doesn't take as much "skill". Why not go back to using arrows and shields? Those take more "skill".

As long we dont have BVR radars I cant see a problem to have lockon Hellfires.

What about the Apache longbow. It has a radar and fire and forget missiles.

I can't help myself hearing the subliminal 'choppas are so much more l33t and complicated, why can they be defeated by simple AA assets, zomg hax' in certain posts.

One, flares should and are supposed to be dropped before you even get locked on, not when the missile is coming your way and two you shouldn't be flying in an AA infested area anyway.

CAS_117 wrote:

What about the Apache longbow. It has a radar and fire and forget missiles.

I mean we dont have radars in PR so a fire and forget missile doesnt change gameplay too much since you have to see the target in order to engage. And when you can see him, he can see you too. You are both in the hot zone.

A BVR radar can change gameplay a lot. Good or bad it doesnt matter right now. Its an other topic for discussion.

So by adding fire and forget missiles we force the pilot and gunner to communicate better in order to: "get in - kill - get out" and we give them one more reason to risk since they will be more effective. Right now they just: "get in - hope to kill - pray to get out".

I don´t know why everyone thinks missiles that lock on remove skill. Far from it.

Nemus wrote:I mean we dont have radars in PR so a fire and forget missile doesnt change gameplay too much since you have to see the target in order to engage. And when you can see him, he can see you too. You are both in the hot zone.

A BVR radar can change gameplay a lot. Good or bad it doesnt matter right now. Its an other topic for discussion.

So by adding fire and forget missiles we force the pilot and gunner to communicate better in order to: "get in - kill - get out" and we give them one more reason to risk since they will be more effective. Right now they just: "get in - hope to kill - pray to get out".

Yes exactly true.

Alex6714 wrote:I don´t know why everyone thinks missiles that lock on remove skill. Far from it.

True.

IRL though, I'm interested in knowing exactly how long it takes to take out a tank or other armored vehicle as soon as the chopper pops out of cover.

In essence, how long it takes to pop out of cover and get back in cover, and to shoot a hellfire missile that will kill a tank.

And I'd also like to see that number be duplicated in PR.

CAS_117 wrote:13 seconds.

That was amazing. Was that a Hellfire locking onto and destroying a light aircraft (looked like a Piper Cub)? (What enemy was that?)

The heli-versus-AA is always a good debate. Modern (and even not-so-modern) AA systems are (as CAS said at some point) very good at killing choppers and often won't be distracted by flares. However, attack helis have radars that detect SAMs and alert the pilot. The current system of the pilot getting a warning half a second after lock isn't bad, but I think it should be a short time after launch - you should be able to sit there all day with a chopper locked and the pilot never know.

Something does bug me though. IRL, attack helis are seen flying low over terrain, often to give top cover to ground patrols, hovering and moving slowly to take shots - but in PR doing this will result in you being shot down very quickly.

Why is this?

Is it because IRL a chopper is only sent into an area where there are known to be no AAs? Can't be, because the whole point of a patrol is to recon an area. I don't know...

EDIT: Wait, is it because IRL choppers have radars that detect enemies before the heli is in range of their weapons?

Stu.

Alex6714 wrote:I don´t know why everyone thinks missiles that lock on remove skill. Far from it.

Actually the lock on weapons removed the need for gunnery skill IRL.
A P-51 pilot should be a good gunner to score a kill.
A today's weapons require knowlege.

So I believe we should change some things in attack helicopters in a way that a gunner must have knowlege (= experience in game) of his weapons. No need to know how to lead a target but need to know from what distance to fire, what angle etc. And more important how to communicate with his pilot.

Speaking of which, if the Apache lock-on system was implemented and it got Longbow Hellfire IIs, AA tanks and armored vehicles in general would have no chance. Stay behind cover, shoot, missile goes above cover and flies right into the target. You never even see it coming.