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Is this really all that realistic? I understand that some of the air assets were removed for balance purposes and it would be a very short game if you could just identify a cache building, laze it and call in the zoomies. That being said, a lot of what I have read about fighting in Afghanistan relies heavily on air support to overcome the "homefield advantage" that the fighters have. This is just something the fighters have to deal with, they know ahead of time that the Americans/NATO have the ability to make bombs fall from perfectly clear, silent days (B-52+GPS=FTW).

What do you think?

Many of the current INS maps are by PR standards too small for CAS.

The upcoming Sangin however will feature both jets and attack helicopters. So just get in line and wait with the rest of us :]

Zrix wrote:Many of the current INS maps are by PR standards too small for CAS.

The upcoming Sangin however will feature both jets and attack helicopters. So just get in line and wait with the rest of us :]

MAKE ME WAIT IN LINE.

Helis on ins maps are ok but I dont know how good jet would be. SA-7 isnt that good and trying to kill a jet with anything else would be nearly impossible. Also when you have the ability to constantly bomb buildings till you get the right one will probably take the fun of actually searching away.

Well I wouldnt mind if tickets at the disposal of the blueforce dropped dramatically and in return they get good hardware on most maps.
But yes, pilots would just start randomly bombing buildings, not realistic either.

Nimise wrote:Helis on ins maps are ok but I dont know how good jet would be. SA-7 isnt that good and trying to kill a jet with anything else would be nearly impossible. Also when you have the ability to constantly bomb buildings till you get the right one will probably take the fun of actually searching away.

insurgents in real life have a really hard time shooting down jets.

i too am a bit disappointed by the lack of bluefor airpower in ins maps. it seems like at best all you can get is little bird which are usually flown by idiots {straight into the ground} i see very little in the way of apaches and cobras and those are the types of choppers you need for close air support. its seems like people really cant wrap their heads around assymetrical warfare, and even ins maps are made a little too mirrored imo.

also i feel like sangin is another one of those maps that will be truly awesome, but after a few weeks hardly any servers will play it because "it empties out server its too big no one likes to play taliban etc" BS i hear. think qinling.

If the new spawning changes are in fact implemented, I believe having CAS available to BLUFOR on appropriate Insurgency maps may help even out the imbalances caused by not being able to spawn on rally points.

And by appropriate maps, I mean 4km maps. 2km if absolutely necessary, and only in the form of helicopters.

Zrix wrote:Many of the current INS maps are by PR standards too small for CAS.

The upcoming Sangin however will feature both jets and attack helicopters. So just get in line and wait with the rest of us :]

looking forward to this

Silly_Savage wrote:If the new spawning changes are in fact implemented, I believe having CAS available to BLUFOR on appropriate Insurgency maps may help even out the imbalances caused by not being able to spawn on rally points.

And by appropriate maps, I mean 4km maps. 2km if absolutely necessary, and only in the form of helicopters.

The inbalancment is allready being balanced whit the spawning time reduced and the number of max FB's been built, plus there's nothing saying this thing WILL be inplanted for 0.9.

And do you know why the apache was removed from karbala? ultimate pwnag3 since the insurgents barely had a chanche against it whitout a SA-9 kit in the area(they aren't that common)

rampo93(FIN) wrote:The inbalancment is allready being balanced whit the spawning time reduced and the number of max FB's been built, plus there's nothing saying this thing WILL be inplanted for 0.9.

And do you know why the apache was removed from karbala? ultimate pwnag3 since the insurgents barely had a chanche against it whitout a SA-9 kit in the area(they aren't that common)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the apache always did a horrible job on karbala. Yes, there would be some shelling from time to time, but it was always shot down by the SA-7 in every case, or sometimes even by a streak of hot .50 bullets going through its cockpit.

It was removed because of two things :

-the sound bug
-it being completely useless and a waste of tickets

I rest my case.

Reduced spawn times for transport vehicles (or more of them in the first place) would do fine to balance the lack of RPs.

As for attack helicopters/jets in Insurgency, I think people overestimate how much effect they actually have. For the sake of realism and considering how aircrews usually perform in PR I prefer no AA.

rampo93(FIN) wrote:And do you know why the apache was removed from karbala? ultimate pwnag3 since the insurgents barely had a chanche against it whitout a SA-9 kit in the area(they aren't that common)

Source?

I never witnessed the Apache raping on Karbala, often it got easily downed by AA/HMGs if it hadn't just already crashed.

I don't see the 2 LB's doing any better/worse now days either.

Snazz wrote:As for attack helicopters/jets in Insurgency, I think people overestimate how much effect they actually have.

This.

Ten thousand times this.

Pilots are not gods. We do not possess mystical and omnipotent powers. We are merely players with equipment that can rise above the ground and shoot from that location. We bleed, our equipment falters, we lag, we crash, and we are no more or less skilled than those on the ground (usually, there are times I've had my doubts about that "less" part ?? If anything, it is easier for us to die, we have no cover to hide behind and absorb hits for us. We are just like armor. If you coordinate, we can be unstoppable. If no one helps us out, we can help no one out.

Exactly.

I get the impression some are paranoid due to the air-rape that occurs in vBF2.

In Vanilla most vehicles show up on the HUD, planes don't need to land to reload, if they crash they quickly respawn and UAVs show where infantry are on the ground.

In PR even when a CP is being taken or a Cache has been revealed you don't know exactly where the enemy is due to the large cap radius and random cache spawns.

Sure you might spot a vehicle or bomb the whole area and get lucky, but unless the strike is properly coordinated with ground forces it's not going to have a significant effect on the overall battle. The time it takes to land, reload then take off again is plenty for the enemy to react appropriately (spreading out/taking cover etc.).

Snazz wrote:Reduced spawn times for transport vehicles (or more of them in the first place) would do fine to balance the lack of RPs.

As for attack helicopters/jets in Insurgency, I think people overestimate how much effect they actually have. For the sake of realism and considering how aircrews usually perform in PR I prefer no AA.


Source?

I never witnessed the Apache raping on Karbala, often it got easily downed by AA/HMGs if it hadn't just already crashed.

I don't see the 2 LB's doing any better/worse now days either.

Weird... karbala was often the only map where i had my apache up for the entire round, suffered of that as an insurgent myslef on many occasions myself

rampo93(FIN) wrote:Weird... karbala was often the only map where i had my apache up for the entire round, suffered of that as an insurgent myslef on many occasions myself

Our experiences differ between servers/play times.

A combo of good pilots and poor SA7 operators could easily result in the Apache raping on Karbala, I just haven't seen it myself.

Oh man, I want the merlin back in Al Basrah so bad, who cares about the sound bug. I still get the sound bug (from other choppers) in most of the other maps, so that can't really be a valid reason for it's removal.

Al Basrah isn't as great as it once was with no air transport.

Duckmeister wrote:Oh man, I want the merlin back in Al Basrah so bad, who cares about the sound bug. I still get the sound bug (from other choppers) in most of the other maps, so that can't really be a valid reason for it's removal.

Al Basrah isn't as great as it once was with no air transport.

I'd love a 32 layer, remove the tank, have only 1APC, 1 Scimi, 1 Merlin, 2 Lynxes, 1 logi truck, 2WMIks, 1 Trans rover.

Though I suspect such a Air orientated arrangement would work better on a 4k Ins map like sangin. There is only 1 INS map in PR where air is a significant transport asset, and that is archer and I think that is a shame.

insurgents in real life have a really hard time shooting down jets.

Not necessarily.... in Afghanistan during the Soviet intervention, the mujahedeen shot down several fixed-wing aircraft. of course, i think that this was mostly because of the FIM Stinger, but it's very possible for INS to shoot down fixed wing aircraft. Just make the countermeasures tricky.

aperson444 wrote:Not necessarily.... in Afghanistan during the Soviet intervention, the mujahedeen shot down several fixed-wing aircraft. of course, i think that this was mostly because of the FIM Stinger, but it's very possible for INS to shoot down fixed wing aircraft. Just make the countermeasures tricky.

they did shot it, but it wasn't very common thing
i.e. in 1988 only 2 planes were shot down by MANPADS, and 6 helicopters
here is a table about 1987, numbers on left- launches, on right-hits(completely destroyed or damaged)

info is from report of colonel Ivanchenko, 40th Air Army, listed in book Airwar in Afghanistan
and dont forget to correct situation to nowadays

Dr2B Rudd wrote: There is only 1 INS map in PR where air is a significant transport asset, and that is archer and I think that is a shame.

Indeed. Al Basrah is still one of my favorite maps, but it used to be even better when we had the merlin. Who cares about the sound bug, I still get it all the time on other maps.

Flying the merlin on Basrah was one of the most realistic aspects of the game at the time. It isn't like Ramiel, where every 4th building is an enterable and the whole city is laid out checker-board style. It is a very "real" (I can't think of a word to describe it) city. There are so many echoes of what you see on the news. Just the experience of flying over the city, dropping off a squad, was one of the most awesome aspects of the game. I mean, the map is so good that just being in a squad, patrolling the village on the western half of the map, that was just great.

Why can't it just be like Ramiel, where the US Team has one blackhawk, and that's it. That's what it was before, I'd love to see it again in the new release. Please, devs, put the merlin back in Al Basrah!