Project Reality Forums

As a person who has been playing and analyzing PR for about 3-4 months now, and I think we need to revisit one of the very basics of PR: deviation.

As I played PR, I have begun to notice a type of gameplay that seems to be encouraged that I really have never seen before.

To me, it seems like a system in which firefights are drawn out and killing, which is, in both reality and this game, made a secondary point. This is strange to me because most of the tickets we get are from killing. In essence, we seem to just be taking fire and returning fire until luck means that we get killed.

Deviation is the center of this.

With the deviation of all builds, starting from .8 to .87, deviation has been taken to what I consider astronomical levels. No mod nor game has ever had deviation taken to levels like these.

So I started digging. I used the search button to find all threads related to deviation, and it's taken quite a while to really get to the bottom of where the trend of being in favor of heavy deviation and long scope-in times came to be.

After lots of digging and asking, I found two threads that I will henceforth refer to as ground zero, where everything started.

If you would want to know, the two threads of importance that are being discussed here would be here: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-c ... n-wip.html

and here: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-c ... s-wip.html

So allow me to do examination of this, if you would prefer me to do so. If you do not wish to read on, then you should stop here. If you don't want to read the in-depth version, skip to the bottom, where I will include a fast summary of the points.

It seems to me, a person who is relatively seasoned with Project Reality and Combined Arms, that deviation in Project Reality contains flaws, which generally make it's representation of marksmanship in reality unrealistic.

Many forum members, many highly regarded in this community, say it is not so, but in truth, marksmanship is not like this. In reality, you shoot where you aim, even when walking. Shooting is not as complicated as some say it to be. In reality, although it is true that your heartbeat, breathing, natural wobble, and sway all affect your accuracy. However, it is definitely not to the extent that is depicted in Project Reality.

If you are a dedicated infantryman, then you can say that you can shoot minute-of-badguy out to at least 300 yards. US Marines train to hit targets at 500 yards with standard iron sights in the M16, so accuracy is not an issue.

Now, it is self-evident through the evidence provided at ground zero that through the heavy influence of a clan called Task Force 21, Project Reality changed dramatically, as their beliefs of taking fire and returning fire was implemented in Project Reality. This had the effect of drastically reducing accuracy in weapons and things that could be made to fit this idea, and would marginalize all other roles. Infantry fighting is where this is especially obvious, since it has been affected the most.

The concept of taking fire and returning fire is peculiar though, because of the way to win the game. In this game, the main mechanism that reduces tickets to win the game is killing. Not flag capping. Ticket bleed is a factor, but it is not a significant factor in the outcome of the battle and only serves to quickly end a game in which one side has been decisively overpowered.

So the system of taking fire and returning fire is a contradiction to the main mechanism in which one can win the game. Since the words "taking fire and returning fire" implies that both sides are simply suppressing each other. Suppressing does not imply that you are killing the enemy.

Marginalization of anything in Project Reality that does not fit into the system of taking fire and returning fire seems evident to me now that I look at Project Reality. In Project Reality, warm up times in which applying throttle creates unstable helicopters is a way of simply making a potentially offensive helicopter never leave the ground. The changing of how attack helicopters used their missiles was an attempt to make them have to take fire in order to return fire.

To us, people who flip choppers are considered noobs, and this sentiment that people who want accurate weapons and realistic capabilities are 'nilla nubs, and these people tend to be used as a scapegoat. With the previous statements, it is obvious that we need to examine many parts of Project Reality closely. Project Reality is trying to change player behavior, but as the saying goes around here, players are hardcoded.

The main points in the post are:

• Task Force 21 heavily influenced Project Reality development, and has attempted to implement a system of taking fire and returning it.
• This system calls for the marginalization of anything in the game and anyone who tries to get around it.
• So called "nilla nubs" are in general, blamed for negative aspects of this system.
• Task Force 21 is disbanded, however it's influence continues to weigh heavily on Project Reality's development.

This post is not meant to be inflammatory, demeaning, insulting, libelous, or slanderous in any way. If anyone has objections, please voice them in comments or PMs.

I think you need not include the things about TF21 influencing it as it really seems you have a grudge and ruins your argument, in my opinion at least. Its also not really relevant as it seems the only basis for this is the coders tags...

The way I see it, sure deviation has flaws, its not meant to be perfect. Also, firing animations were heavily changed for .9 so wait for that.

Helos having a 30 warm up timer slow down gameplay and allow troops to hop in and get settled with the correct squad before the helo takes off. Its not only showing that you cant simply hop in a helo and fly off, but it helps prevent people from flying off alone, leaving a guy behind, among other things.

With each release the firing of rifles gets closer to what it needs to be, sometimes it strays but its corrected and tweaked in later releases. We went from no deviation, to high deviation, to laser pin point rifles to crazy deviation to the decent deviation we have now in the current public version. its all a WIP

Great post, I hope everyone who comments on this thread actually reads the whole thing through before shouting 'lock' 'use search' and 'there's already a thread about this' because this really looks at it at a different angle. I have not been playing as long as most members of this forum (6 months) and as such I think some people need to stop defending aspects to PR, first and foremost deviation. The reasons are stated above, so I will not repeat what has been said there and in past threads.

EDIT: To Okita - I am happy to hear this problem is being fixed for future updates... Though I don't really agree we have decent deviation now (Can't imagine what it was like before)

If we could have....

1. A sway system designed around each and every stance that reacts to stamina, movement and weapon transitions.

2. A free-aim sighting system that doesn't mechanically attach your rifle to your cheek and perfectly stabilize itself while allowing you to rotate 180-360 degrees in a matter of milliseconds. Even while you're prone! Segue to points 3 and 4...

3. A system where no form of turning speed is only limited by the dpi of your mouse and where each stance has it's own turning speed.

4. 1st person movement animations for all stances.

5. A stamina system that effects accuracy.

6. A realistic ballistics model where the travel path of a rifle round is not a straight line.

7. A system where a soldiers weapon isn't always in the hip/ready position.

8. A weapon collision system.

...all of those features (and I mean all). Then all we'd have to do is plug in factory MoA settings or marksmanship qualification groupings and we'd be good to go.

But we don't, I'm sorry. This is BF2.

[R-DEV]OkitaMakoto wrote:I think you need not include the things about TF21 influencing it as it really seems you have a grudge and ruins your argument, in my opinion at least. Its also not really relevant as it seems the only basis for this is the coders tags...

I have nothing against TF21, but it just seems that they lead the charge for increased deviation.

[R-DEV]OkitaMakoto wrote:The way I see it, sure deviation has flaws, its not meant to be perfect. Also, firing animations were heavily changed for .9 so wait for that.

I'd like to see how this affects gameplay in .9, and I might change my stance depending on how it plays out.

[R-DEV]OkitaMakoto wrote:Helos having a 30 warm up timer slow down gameplay and allow troops to hop in and get settled with the correct squad before the helo takes off. Its not only showing that you cant simply hop in a helo and fly off, but it helps prevent people from flying off alone, leaving a guy behind, among other things.

Couldn't this be accomplished without making the helicopters flip?

[R-DEV]OkitaMakoto wrote:With each release the firing of rifles gets closer to what it needs to be, sometimes it strays but its corrected and tweaked in later releases. We went from no deviation, to high deviation, to laser pin point rifles to crazy deviation to the decent deviation we have now in the current public version. its all a WIP

Well, if the developers think that it's going to be more fun for everyone if deviation is a certain way, then sure, why not try it.

Its also worth noting as Fuzzhead did in the linked thread, that deviation is not merely there to simulate realistic weapon handling, but to increase the effectiveness of real world tactics. A stationary soldier with time to properly align his body to fire will be more effective than a soldier running across a war torn street. Flanking and setting up in a position ahead of time will lead to better results.

before deviation, these things were nowhere near as important since you could run, stop shoot run stop shoot.

as far as TF21 leading the charge, personally I dont get where you see it. All i see to add to that claim is the one who worked on some WIP coding had that tag.. no other TF21 posted in that thread from what i saw lol

as far is helos not flipping, well tis prolly a hard coded issue, but tbh, i dont know

[R-DEV]OkitaMakoto wrote: as far as TF21 leading the charge, personally I dont get where you see it. All i see to add to that claim is the one who worked on some WIP coding had that tag.. no other TF21 posted in that thread from what i saw lol

The guys that seem to be most fervently in favor of more deviation had TF21 tags...

I know that we can't have laser rifles, but reducing the time it takes to reach minimum deviation and reducing the penalty from moving your view would go a long way to make it more realistic.

On a side note, realistic ballistics can be achieved by making all rounds tracers with earth gravity, but that means either you shoot all tracers or no tracers.

As for adding sway, etc, that's for PR2, if it is successful.

Also, with 1.5 the prone dive deviation with PR's deviation becomes sort of nutty.

Hunt3r wrote:an't have laser rifles, but reducing the time it takes to reach minimum deviation and reducing the penalty from moving your view

Being worked on.

Hunt3r wrote: On a side note, realistic ballistics can be achieved by making all rounds tracers with earth gravity, but that means either you shoot all tracers or no tracers.

Even after sacrificing tracer ratios. Only ballistic trajectories are fixed. Which, by itself, is only one of many problems we face in BF2 (as I listed).

Hunt3r wrote: Also, with 1.5 the prone dive deviation with PR's deviation becomes sort of nutty.

Prone diving will be completely pointless in 0.9.

Well ever since deviation got properly introduced fire-fights, especially at close range, are pretty much retarded, its quite a surreal feeling playing and just having someone stare back at you 20m away both knowing they have to fire their gun and miss for a good x amount of seconds before either can kill. But hey, like Jaymz said, if the engine does allow a better alternative..... if only RO ballistics/free look could be done in pr.

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:Being worked on.

Good to know.

'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz;1227382']Even after sacrificing tracer ratios. Only ballistic trajectories are fixed. Which, by itself, is only one of many problems we face in BF2 (as I listed).

Unless you have a constant wind speeds in parts of the map, or slowly changing ones, it will take a supercomputer to accurately calculate wind speeds and the associated windage.

Yes, everything else requires a new engine in order to get more realistic aiming systems. However maximum and minimum deviation should both be lowered some. This is solely a comment regarding Project Reality .8xx

Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad will basically set the bar for how marksmanship should be done, based off of released gameplay videos.

Funny how you claim that the deviation in PR is a 'TF21 conspiracy', one of their members did spend several weeks coding it, yes, but their deviation model was only in 0.809, it got changed and boosted in 0.85 and 0.86 releases. If we still used the original deviation values from Wolfe, PR would probably still have headshots since rifles deviated so much hitting someone in the head was only possible in CQC at random.

So I don't know where you come from with this 1 year later.

Okay...and what exactly is the point of this thread? You want to revisit deviation?

I'm sure you're not alone in that opinion, but finding the sweet spot is easier said than done. There are so many variables that affect your shooting ability in combat that cannot possibly be implemented into PR due to the engine's capabilities.

I personally wouldn't mind deviation being similar to that of the v0.75 era, but am happy with what we have now. You need to realize that deviation has been constantly tweaked in the past and I'm sure will continue to be tweaked in the future to what the developer's, not TF21's, opinion of what feels "right".

As far as I'm concerned, TF21 is still together; albeit I see no need to include them in this discussion.

I agree the deviation should be adjusted... it's just too much as it is now.

I think animations for recoil can be redone so that deviation can completely be removed. I know Chuc is learning and making these animations at the same time, so props to him for all the great work he's done so far, but it is still true that the animations can be improved. The new SAW animations Chuc did and showcased is exactly what PR needs in order to reduce or remove deviation completely.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, Chuc made the recoil animations "shake" and "snap" more, so the shooter is automatically disorientated slightly after every shot.

I can't find the video right now, but if someone can find it, it'll be great.

With new "snappier" animations, shooters will automatically compensate and take more time to aim shots.

If you're wondering what happens when there is no deviation, check this video out. In fact, I feel that there is more fire and return fire since people are more afraid of dying and therefore using up more ammunition in wild attempts to suppress the enemy. People tend to stay in cover longer since they know that popping out for even 1 second can mean death.



Starting at 1:40.

Skip to 9:00 for the firefight I was specifically referring to.

[R-CON]Outlawz wrote:Funny how you claim that the deviation in PR is a 'TF21 conspiracy', one of their members did spend several weeks coding it, yes, but their deviation model was only in 0.809, it got changed and boosted in 0.85 and 0.86 releases. If we still used the original deviation values from Wolfe, PR would probably still have headshots since rifles deviated so much hitting someone in the head was only possible in CQC at random.

So I don't know where you come from with this 1 year later.

Well I don't believe that deviation in PR is a TF21 conspiracy, but it certainly seems that those who were most vocal about adding deviation and longer set up times were in general, TF21 members.

Now this certainly doesn't mean that they took over PR leadership with wide disapproval or something that only those who wear tinfoil hats would dream up, but this is a general observation.

TF21 is TF21, and they exist as a gaming clan, so yes, beyond the fact that a few members of TF21 pushing heavily for the deviation that existed in .8, etc, they did not do anything.

Silly_Savage, I want to see deviation tweaked so that you should be able to get one shot center of mass out of two or three at 300 meters, prone or crouching with an assault rifle, linearly decreasing to what should in theory be a sure shot in CQB, if you stay still for half a second.

If the PR devs aren't already doing this I can work out how the deviation files work, I'll try to have a go at doing a mod to them to test it out.

Combined Arms is to me, a no compromises deal, and most likely will leave some with a bitter taste in their mouth, and it would require a lot more public playtesting to really determine if it would really make the game more fun in general.

If deviation is server-side, then perhaps this could be something ala .874x?

No one cares about your theory of TF21's influence on PR's deviation.

What do they have to do with you creating a thread about improving deviations current state?
Nothing.

You think deviation could be improve in PR, so stick to coming up with ways of improving it.

'[R-DEV wrote:ballard_44;1227432']What do they have to do with you creating a thread about improving deviations current state?
Nothing.

He think they influenced the deviation in PR. Therefore, he made a thread with bits about TF21's supposed influence.

i was on shower and i was thinking that:
deviation is just...bad.
yesterday i played qwai and i was in some quardtower.
three guys came from the open ground and stopped there.they go prone and i was standing in that guardtower.
yeah,i was killed even that i spotted them first,i take the first shot.
i cant use towers sides to improve my accuracy,only option for me was standing in there and shoot.
little inreace deviation,make a little sway just to make the aiming a little bit natural and to remind that there some invisible force why you miss.swaying ends when the cone is settled then your aiming is perfect.

richyrich55 wrote:He think they influenced the deviation in PR. Therefore, he made a thread with bits about TF21's supposed influence.

Whether some clan, Rhino, Chuc, myself, or anyone else on the team thought of the current deviation system is a non factor.

He believes the current deviation can be improved so he should from now on stick with that only and come up with ways to improve it.

Adding in the TF21 bits was worthless.

If CA has an influence on future deviation, should the next player who believes it's wrong state CA as the perpetrators?

And for the record, I'm not smitten with our current deviation, either.

For the record none of the folks on the CA Team do things because we think there is some sort of "evil conspiracy". We do it because there are things in PR which we don't like as they are and we think would be better if done in a different way. What separates us from most other people who are at issue with things like deviation and what not is we don't just sit around and discuss it we do the work and make our ideas happen .

I can only really speak for myself in saying this part, but I get along just fine with the PR Dev team and I think they do deserve credit for the work they do, just like anyone else should. I may disagree with some gameplay related things but in the end so do some of the people on the Dev team itself, nothing is perfect and you will almost never see changes where there is unanimous agreement.