Project Reality Forums

[T-ADM]Robbi^ wrote:As for the moans of CnC being fail etc, well, it's games from the PRT which will help us to make changes to the mode etc

I did search and couldn't find anything on CnC, think I have seen some threads, but not for .9

So, just to say I have played 5 full rounds of CnC in .9, one of those was Qinling in the PRT C8.5 not even an hour ago.

I think the game mode essentially does not work as it is right now, for a few reasons.

1. The maps are too big. When you are going to have such small areas of engagement, namely those around the FoBs, I'm not sure it makes sense to have such huge maps. All this actually does is draw out the initial recon period to ridiculous lengths, leaving many players- even most players- nothing to do but wait.

2. Assets. As it stands the most viable tactic is to find the enemy FoB, laze it, bomb it. Tallying that up, we're talking 1 pilot in a Scout chopper, 1 guy to laze, 1 guy to bomb (rough approximation). Meanwhile the rest of the team sit on their thumbs. That's not even an exaggeration, during our PRT battle standing orders were for everybody to stay at main except for those few who were lazing or flying. It's not at all easy to see how that is completely unsatisfying, and the removal of certain assets is key to getting anything like a working game mode, imo.

TLDR:
1. Smaller maps for more diverse action and more intense engagements (or any engagements for that matter.)
2. Less powerful assets so that more people on a team are involved in the battle.
3. As it stands, for most players the gameplay just ends up drawn out and aimless.

maybe one could have an insurgency-style marker for enemy fob's after it has been up for 20 minutes or so in a range of maybe 300-500m around the actual fob. CATA didn't know they pos of the NATO fob for almost the whole game, and believe me, we looked so the only thing we could do is stay around ours and defend it (successfully i might say) but i think it would've been nice for the game if we had been in the position to stage an attack.

also: there should be a bleed instantly when a fob is destroyed. i don't know if it was a server issue but there was no bleed for some reason.

Web_cole wrote: I think the game mode essentially does not work as it is right now, for a few reasons.

Good that somebody made topic about CnC. I think CnC need some changes but it does work, on one map only though. It's Yamalia. Had great rounds on Yamalia CnC on RT or PMC.

Web_cole wrote:2. Assets. As it stands the most viable tactic is to find the enemy FoB, laze it, bomb it. Tallying that up, we're talking 1 pilot in a Scout chopper, 1 guy to laze, 1 guy to bomb (rough approximation). Meanwhile the rest of the team sit on their thumbs. That's not even an exaggeration, during our PRT battle standing orders were for everybody to stay at main except for those few who were lazing or flying. It's not at all easy to see how that is completely unsatisfying, and the removal of certain assets is key to getting anything like a working game mode, imo.

IMO that's the biggest issue in CnC. Tanks and especially jets/attack choppers can attack FOB and ending game without help of other team. There should be rule on CnC that FOB can't be destroyed by bombs, missiles, etc. Spawn on it should be only disabled for some time after hit. The lack of heavy assets is the reason why CnC is fun only on Yamalia.

Web_cole wrote:I did search and couldn't find anything on CnC, think I have seen some threads, but not for .9

So, just to say I have played 5 full rounds of CnC in .9, one of those was Qinling in the PRT C8.5 not even an hour ago.

I think the game mode essentially does not work as it is right now, for a few reasons.

1. The maps are too big. When you are going to have such small areas of engagement, namely those around the FoBs, I'm not sure it makes sense to have such huge maps. All this actually does is draw out the initial recon period to ridiculous lengths, leaving many players- even most players- nothing to do but wait.

2. Assets. As it stands the most viable tactic is to find the enemy FoB, laze it, bomb it. Tallying that up, we're talking 1 pilot in a Scout chopper, 1 guy to laze, 1 guy to bomb (rough approximation). Meanwhile the rest of the team sit on their thumbs. That's not even an exaggeration, during our PRT battle standing orders were for everybody to stay at main except for those few who were lazing or flying. It's not at all easy to see how that is completely unsatisfying, and the removal of certain assets is key to getting anything like a working game mode, imo.

TLDR:
1. Smaller maps for more diverse action and more intense engagements (or any engagements for that matter.)
2. Less powerful assets so that more people on a team are involved in the battle.
3. As it stands, for most players the gameplay just ends up drawn out and aimless.

Glad to see someone used their initiative here mate, well done.

Will add my thoughts later on.

Bleed should be instant and hard. Or there is no point going to kill the FOb in the 1st place as we found out in the PRT battle.

Instant and hard bleed didn't work as well. In one match when someone put FOB in wrong place they instantly lost game in 2 min.

Unfortunately, this game mode is not played very often on public servers. I have never seen a populated server playing this mode. I think it needs to be improved upon for it to become popular enough for it to be developed further, otherwise, perhaps efforts should be directed to other parts of the mod, and this put on the back burner.

my 2 bits

Web_cole wrote:
1. The maps are too big. When you are going to have such small areas of engagement, namely those around the FoBs, I'm not sure it makes sense to have such huge maps. All this actually does is draw out the initial recon period to ridiculous lengths, leaving many players- even most players- nothing to do but wait.

Very much agreed. Though the other alternative would be to allow multiple FO's to be built. With the new rally system and new CnC rules the use of two FO's could still be effective.

2. Assets. As it stands the most viable tactic is to find the enemy FoB, laze it, bomb it. Tallying that up, we're talking 1 pilot in a Scout chopper, 1 guy to laze, 1 guy to bomb (rough approximation). Meanwhile the rest of the team sit on their thumbs. That's not even an exaggeration, during our PRT battle standing orders were for everybody to stay at main except for those few who were lazing or flying. It's not at all easy to see how that is completely unsatisfying, and the removal of certain assets is key to getting anything like a working game mode, imo.

I disagree. Air-Superiority is something that is completely integral in modern warfare and the current incarnation of CnC really hits that idea home. A team should be punished if they are incapable of neutralizing the enemy Airforce. Sure it is a hard lesson learned but it is true.

If Airpower is thought to be too powerful in CnC then I would suggest allowing for the testing of Radar Station assets or upping the ammount of AA.

----

I personally want to add that 20 wires/foxhole per FO seems a tad too short for such an important position. If every AAS map is allowed a maximum of 100 foxholes/wires then I think CnC should get that for its one "Uber" FO. This would allow for clever battle lines to be formed and even halt the movement of APCs which have in my experience lead to a short, suicidal, and cheap rush to our FO and then an artillery strike.

I also suggest that you should have the FO be resistant to artillery strikes much like the INS/Militia/Tali Caches are as the above experience was really disheartening.

Ground AA wont help shit when bombs can be dropped beyond AA range. If my teams pilots take out your teams jets for example, you will be screwed.

I personally think the maps are the right size, any smaller and the FOB's can end up being too close to each other every time.

From the times I have played this mode with my clan, we split into 2 main groups - scouting/attacking & defending. The defending squad build the FOB and it's defences and yes will admit they can then have a small wait while the enemy finds them and starts attacking, but this time can be spent ensuring all angles are covered and everybody knows what they are doing when the attack starts. The attacking group sends out air and ground assets looking for the enemy and when spotted, reforms to plan an assault.

I've not played this mode since 0.917 and am not sure if the ticket bleed unbalance has been fixed yet, hope it has as we have our first inter-clan scrim in CnC mode in a few weeks and we are all really looking forward to it.

What about no area attacks and no attack aircraft (helis too), just some trans heli's to use for spotting and transport?

Ensure there are enough ground assets.

This would remove the out of view distance bomb attacks and oblige the attacking force to come in with vehicles and infantry.

This seems to be confirmed by the post saying that Yamalia was fun...no attack aircraft.

So the race would be for the teams to be mobile in APC's and heli's the one with the best or most thorough spotters and quickest response from infantry units would win.

I still don't see an issue with CAS strikes in CnC.

Air power is a real important element in any war and if a team has gained air superiority then they should have an exponentially increased chance of winning.

Its nearly the same thing with any vehicle. If one team has wiped out all armor and has a large armor force available then they will most likely attempt a blitz into the FO after dealing with the stationary TOWs. This armor would then have an easy chance to take out the FO well outside of the engagement range of anything but H-AT's and with only two H-AT's maximum and the fact that they are no longer an instant kill results in the death of the FO.

Basically CnC teaches us that the life of an infantry man is sad, brutish, and short.

The aircraft attack from out of view distance, and as we all know you have to be lucky to fell an aircraft with AA.
A FOB could have two TOW's and two HATs the tank would have to be in view distance so it would IMHO be alot harder to assault successfully than one spotter on a hill with his laze.

About air superiority in pr: the thing is here, in pr, we have this moment when all the air assets are still in air & looking for each other (or trying to avoid any contact). With 1km of view distance and lack on any radars it often means that air superiority is a myth. Especially in CnC.
Last time I played Kashan CnC (pmc cnc ninght iirc) enemy fb was destoyed by an airstrike about 90 seconds after jets have spawned. Now you mention air superiority and a punishment for not earning it. Sure, should the enemy had spotted our fb and call in CAS we might've been screwed as well. The thing is it leads to extremely schematic game and most people doing nothing but sitting on the fb.

Edit: My another 2 cents: I'd be glad to see no jets in CnC + firebases destroyed only by stabbing it/throwing incendiary. Sure the spawn should be disabled if there are enemy forces nearby and other fb structures should be destroyable as in AAS. This would force presence of infantry in an area of enemy fb + make hight altitude bombing (sure, realistic, but with almost no way to counter it) non-existent.

If you play properly, you get half your armor and AA at the FB and the rest attacking the other one. Have 2 AA vehicles and no jet will be able to bomb without getting locked

IIRC AA range is ~1200m. Locking a laser is ~900m


Therefor, if you have AA manned they can't bomb it.

Dev1200 wrote: IIRC AA range is ~1200m. Locking a laser is ~900m


Therefor, if you have AA manned they can't bomb it.

wrong wrong wrong.
Bombs lock themselves on their own. You can drop them from 2500 diving to the area with a lased targed. Drop it, pull off, wait for boom.

For a laze to be accurate they must be with in view distance right? Kill the spotter/have other Sqd Ldrs laze other points to 'confuse' the bomb. If you have ten lazes and only 1 is the 'right one' then chances of that bomb hitting it are small. Furthermore you simply shouldn't allow that one man with an GLTD to be within view distance of FO. FO's should be visibly covered from most view points this is one of the first things WWI taught planners. Artillery will kill an Operations base so do not place them in obvious positions.


In any case I can conceede that bombs/arty should not be the only thing to kill an FO. Their should a forcing of at least a squad or two to rush in. I still think Air Power shouldn't be squelched because of their abilities. It'd be like saying that AAS shouldn't get jets because they can clear off entire flags with a bomb or two. Or that we shouldn't allow the fortress flag of Fools Road to be fired on by Artillery since it wipes the flag clean and only takes one spotter.

ytman wrote:It'd be like saying that AAS shouldn't get jets because they can clear off entire flags with a bomb or two. Or that we shouldn't allow the fortress flag of Fools Road to be fired on by Artillery since it wipes the flag clean and only takes one spotter.

A flag isn't the whole game. There are events leading up to and following that, other flags you might have to assault next, or have already assaulted to get where you are. The point is CnC can go: Laze FoB > Bomb FoB > The End. That's all she wrote.

L4gi wrote:Ground AA wont help shit when bombs can be dropped beyond AA range. If my teams pilots take out your teams jets for example, you will be screwed.

PLODDITHANLEY wrote:The aircraft attack from out of view distance, and as we all know you have to be lucky to fell an aircraft with AA.

Moonlight wrote:Bombs lock themselves on their own. You can drop them from 2500 diving to the area with a lased targed. Drop it, pull off, wait for boom.

Not a flier myself, but from what people are saying seems like it is possible for Jets to operate with relative impunity from AA. That was certainly the impression I got, as during our PRT battle NATO had almost complete air superiority and we bombed their FoB again, and again, and again, with little to no trouble from AA.

ytman wrote:I still don't see an issue with CAS strikes in CnC.

Air power is a real important element in any war and if a team has gained air superiority then they should have an exponentially increased chance of winning

ytman wrote:I disagree. Air-Superiority is something that is completely integral in modern warfare

As for it being unrealistic to remove these air assets: gameplay > realism. It's not exactly realistic for arty not to destroy weapons caches, now is it?

Also, the same can not really be said of a ground assault/defence with armour and infantry. There's actually the potential for a real engagement. Here I'm defining a real engagement as one which doesn't just involve a handful of pilots and spotters. The armour wouldn't be overpowered because it actually is susceptible to AT.

General_J0k3r wrote:maybe one could have an insurgency-style marker for enemy fob's after it has been up for 20 minutes or so in a range of maybe 300-500m around the actual fob

And yeah, I do agree that if there was some kind of map marker that appeared (similar to Insurgency) that would perhaps negate the problem of the maps being too big.

Oddsodz wrote:Bleed should be instant and hard. Or there is no point going to kill the FOb in the 1st place as we found out in the PRT battle.

I also agree with this, I think this would work well with the assets stated below:

Scout Choppers
Trans Choppers
Heavy Armour
Light Armour
Light Vehicles

This would mean actually getting some epic - ground - battles and some real 'hold the line' moments, which CnC threatens to deliver but ultimately fails in it's current incarnation. And you would get the pay off at the end, with the heavy bleed. To me, that sounds like a satisfying game mode.

ytman wrote:I still don't see an issue with CAS strikes in CnC.

Air power is a real important element in any war and if a team has gained air superiority then they should have an exponentially increased chance of winning.

Its nearly the same thing with any vehicle. If one team has wiped out all armor and has a large armor force available then they will most likely attempt a blitz into the FO after dealing with the stationary TOWs. This armor would then have an easy chance to take out the FO well outside of the engagement range of anything but H-AT's and with only two H-AT's maximum and the fact that they are no longer an instant kill results in the death of the FO.

Basically CnC teaches us that the life of an infantry man is sad, brutish, and short.

Well i never got to play CnC mode or vehicle warfare mode (now i know why). perhaps removing the attack air craft would work i mean sound really F$cked and cheap that the battle can be over with in a few minutes from a single bomb,

PR is about realism and fun, where is the fun in this? having the whole battle decided on who drops there bomb's first?.


My thoughts are piss off the heavy attack air craft altogether,

really all you need in this game mode, is scout cars, and a few tanks. 2 would be all i would be conferable with, and APC's,

IF you put too much armor in then game just encourage people to rush at the start of the game, you don't want that, This game mode was supposed to be about tactical deployments and defensive deployments, picking a position as a forward base and digging in,

CNC is a broken mode. It has some REAL potential and possibly the most REALISTIC mode of play, but it needs to go back to the drawing board. Its not finished, it needs to be carefully scrutinized and thought out again.