Project Reality Forums

The following statement is going to be highly controversial, and will likely get me insulted by many of you, for absolutely no reason. Their will be some bragging on my part, but that is merely to make a point. Get over it in advance.

Abstract: You need to take out tickets to win, and you need to kill people to take out tickets, so you need to get kills to win. As long as the flag that prevents your side from getting a bleed is held, you don't have to worry about flags.
A recurring message I see, in game and on the forums, is that Kills, and KD/R (Kill to Death Ratio) don't matter, and that to win you need to capture flags. This is false on many levels.

Let's break this down:



Officially, there are two methods, but only one is feasible. 1 - Have more tickets than your opponent when the round time limit expires. 2 - Reduce the opposing team's number of tickets to 0. Since rounds very rarely last the full (and server average) 4 hours, that really only leaves reducing the opponents tickets.

Now, eliminating tickets is pretty easy. You kill an enemy (and he gives up), blow up a vehicle, or cap enough flags to 'bleed' the enemy team out. The problem is, the enemy is trying to do the same to you, so you have to be better at taking out their tickets than they are at taking out yours.


In terms of victory, flags don't really have a point. The only flag that matters on a map is the one that initiates the bleed. Keep this flag, and your team won't start bleeding tickets. Preferably you want to own the one that needs to be capped before this as well, to save yourself some breathing room, but that's not necessary. Example, the USMC MUST control docks in order to keep themselves from bleeding out. They don't NEED any other flag to prevent their own bleed. So long as the USMC owns docks, flags aren't an issue.

I know that their last flag causes a bleed, but the slog to get there increases your likelihood of losing, because you'll lose a lot of tickets (or you'll roll over them, in which case this doesn't matter anyway). Yes you will win if you cap out the last flag, but you're more assured to win if you outplay them, and can tie them down in the middle of the map with heavy losses.

Every flag between the 'main' (bleeding) flags only serves to focus the combat. Thing is, combat can occur anywhere on a map, and like I said earlier, as long as you kill more of them than they do of you, you're going to win. Now, you CAN fight through all the flags, and cap out your enemy, but as anyone has seen, that is not nearly as common as reducing their tickets before the last one is capped. It shouldn't be a goal, because it's harder, and statistics show less likely to happen.

So now that we've established that flags don't matter, but you still need to reduce their tickets, all you need to do is kill the enemy. So when I hop in a tank with a clanmate, and I get 80 kills + Vehicle tickets, and 1 death each, we are being damn good teamplayers, because we are helping our team win. I can get the same results with an APC, without ever giving a friendly soldier a lift. That's why I don't go out of my way to stop and give anyone a lift. They would have to get 80 kills between them after I drop them off, to counterbalance my awesomeness. I would be more vulnerable helping them, because I'm moving slower, so it's not worth it to me.


*That's assuming that they can hold 1 flag, but that's not that hard.

That's why I don't like it when an idiot in a vehicle worth a number of tickets (almost always helicopter pilots) loses his vehicle, doing something that isn't crucial to victory. It throws in variables that make it harder to win. We may be creaming the MEC on Muttrah, but I still have to worry that we haven't lost toomany Hueys, because we can easily lose if it's too many. I have lost rounds on Muttrah 10 - 0, because a pilot got "bored".


I'm not saying have everyone camp in your one flag. That's dumb, you'll get wiped out if you don't move in PR. I'm saying go forth and seize strategic areas so that you can get the most kills. You only need a few guys on the flag itself to let you know if they've been snuck up on, so that the rest of the team can collapse back to help defend. THE REST OF THE TEAM should be out in strategic areas of the map (not always flags) where they tie down the enemies resources. What's more important? Losing 40 tickets on both sides to cap city center, or having 1 squad occupy a T-shaped apartment building in a key area that might not be in flag radius, and inflict 40 casualties before being wiped out by multiple squads? I've been in both situations, and the second is both smarter, more helpful, and more fun.



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If you STILL aren't convinced, I'm going to give you a case study.

Beirut 16 layer yesterday on TG server. 31 vs 31.

I'm on the Russian team, with 1 clanmate, and 4 other pubbers in our squad. Our team manages to push the IDF all the way back to their last flag, and it seems like we may be able to cap them out. Our squad had been purely defensive to this point, and was rocking a killer KD/R, with a 10:1 for our worst player. That's because we were smart and defensive, and didn't look for fights, or try to cap flags.

Anyway, IDF is down to their last flag, but they manage to sneak behind us, cap south city, and push us all the way back to our last flag. Guess which team won? The Russians. Despite the sudden turn around, our team kept a higher Kill to Death ratio, and didn't have a ticket bleed, so we won. SEAL and I took spots 1 and 2, with a combined KD/R of 64-5 between us. We were the best team players, because we killed the most bad guys, which is how you win.





TL;DR. Flags don't matter, Kills do.

I was actually thinking this previsouly as well, but in real war battles are won and lost withough casualties, somethings got to be altered

Fess|3-5| wrote:Long OP

I agreed with much of the argument until you left out a vital detail with regards to ticket bleed from flags. You put forth the logic that all one must do is keep the flag that prevent their own teams ticket bleed, or, to be safe, to have the one just before it as well.

But then you simply move on and, unless I missed it in the long post, make no reference to the importance of actually capping the flag that would make the ENEMY bleed.

Flags ARE important, or rather, to continue your logic, no flags are "really" important until the one that initiates ENEMY bleed.

Sure, you can kill the enemy til they run out of tickets, but this also takes a bit of time. The quickest way would be a combination of killing more than the enemy, AND taking the flag that initiates their bleed.

Therefore, yes, flags are important, but as shown above, the only one that's technically "vital" to take in terms of a reward is the one that would cause the bleed on the enemy...

Both killing and flag bleed run down tickets, so its the combination of the two that matters


Therefore, your lack of ever giving a teammate a lift in an APC IS hurting your team and ruining your teams chance in many regards because you are not giving the transportation that is VITAL to taking further flags... flags that would BLEED out the ENEMY.

So, I really do disagree with this logic...

Well, of course killing the enemy....uh...kills the enemy. So your logic works, but the thing is, if you don't go keep the flags, the enemy will, and I can guarantee that if your down to one flag, you will lose, since the enemy will have much more room to maneuver if you can't deny them any land, allowing them to move around your front line much easier and attack from where you least expect. That is one of the number one my squads die: the enemy catches us at our flank. Imagine a team catching a whole entire other team on it's flank.

Now don't get me wrong, what you said is true, but if your in an APC, as you said, and just go and rack up kills, your not helping your team as much as you could be. Plus, your not performing your job as an APC. If you don't know what an APC is, look it up. Infantry squads can perform much better if given APC support. Thus meaning more kills. Genius there.

Like I said, your right about the tickets, but your wrong about flags meaning nothing (securing an area no one will attack is pointless, unless if you can attack from it...).

Kills matter more in isurgency, because they earn IP (Not much still, civilians should be arrested anytime)
Flags matter in AAS, because they are the key to win in that game mode

Absolutely agree with what you have to say, but what's your point? Yes, kills are generally more important than controlling flags, unless said flag initiates a bleed on a team.

You also failed to mention me in your Beirut AAR, well, that is before I left...

Agree completely. I was on MEC on Kashan, we capped the US out but lost simply because a BMP died at the last minute and they had enough tickets to secure the win.

Its a shame that that is so, obviously it shows that the US team wasn't as careless as us, but we did have the teamwork for a capout. I find it a bit insulting that the team with superior teamwork can lose.

I've always held PR higher than other games for one reason:

Player one: "I killed 40 guys"
Player two: "But did you capture the bridge?"
Player one: "Well...no but I killed like 40 guys"
Player two: "Then you still lose in my book"

"PR ideology is about holding or defending objectives and second about K/D"

But your post has reminded me that we (DEV's) need to rethink how much kills should really affect the game. And I'm not talking about showing kills, thats another topic. At the end of the day a tanker with his trusted clan mate camped on a well protected a hill shooting everything that come passed his protected window of opportunity shouldn't effect the score as much as a squad who has attacked, defended and pushed on a number of objectives.

I dont want to play another cookie-cutter game that creates and rewards lonewolfs, I want to play a game that encourages and rewards players who participate together as one in a team.

<3 your thinking CRF

Yes, your K/D ratio will win in a battle of attrition. But a team that attacks well and works together will cap you out in an hour or 2, and you'll still lose.

However, I agree with CRF, definitely need to work on rewarding flag caps/punishing flag losses more.

i didnt read all that, but as long as there is no ticket bleed i would think that kills and asset kills matter more than flags. sometimes teams get so hell bent on getting a flag that has enemy dug in that they just throw away tons of tickets attacking it.

I sometimes wonder if just removing the kills affecting tickets wouldn't be a bad idea (Keep the K/D board for those that find it important). And then focus all tickets and team score only on flag/objectives.


Just something to think about...how would the game play change if kills are not a way (or for some the way) of winning and the only way to win would be to hold objectives to drain tickets.

in my experience with PR which has been quite awhile, it all depends on the map,, example...

qwai river,, u can camp and fortify mine/warehouse all u want but eventually its going to get overrun either with area attack (i think you forgot about those in your post) or armor and then china will have usa flanked on the north and south sides of the river which as someone mentioned earlier means outflanking,,,

however on a map like kashan, its pretty darn hard to take control of north village with even a semi competant team because of the wide areas and open terrain, there is jus only so much a squad can do and cover (hence the glory of teamwork)

i agree that kills seem to be the focus point for most players but if you play a little longer and a little harder (yes we know she said it) i think you will find that capping flags play a lot more a crucial role than you think

[R-DEV]CodeRedFox wrote:I sometimes wonder if just removing the kills affecting tickets wouldn't be a bad idea (Keep the K/D board for those that find it important). And then focus all tickets and team score only on flag/objectives.


Just something to think about...how would the game play change if kills are not a way (or for some the way) of winning and the only way to win would be to hold objectives to drain tickets.

What if its a stalemate and the map time ends?

the only problem in winning matches by K/D is fact that SLs/SMs ussually dont know what is mean "don't atack, you cant capture it by 6 mens, its suicide"

Its a mix of both.
You have to seize OR advance to the flag, during that time you have to defend OR clear the path towards it. Wich mostly includes killing.

Mixture. I still want assets to cost damned tickets (however if this would be implemented the ticket cost for assets should be gradually increased)

dtacs wrote:What if its a stalemate and the map time ends?

You could always have it track tickets in some manner, even just casualty counting on each side, so in the event of a stalemate timewise, the winner would be the team with least losses. (counting in armor and air assets, etc much like tickets currently work)

CRF's idea is interesting.

Edit: original idea of me is quite bad actualy

A ticket bleed on 1 flag in the center/important objective could work? (maybe)

Or

Each team start with a ticket bleed (the same amount per minute), but the teams can slow it down by captureing more flags?
Offcourse i dont know if thats possible.

[R-DEV]CodeRedFox wrote:I sometimes wonder if just removing the kills affecting tickets wouldn't be a bad idea (Keep the K/D board for those that find it important). And then focus all tickets and team score only on flag/objectives.


Just something to think about...how would the game play change if kills are not a way (or for some the way) of winning and the only way to win would be to hold objectives to drain tickets.

I'd rather keep the ticket loss for inf/asset killing. Making flags the only way to make them lose tickets would make the round too long I believe. Also, tickets are there to simulate the number of soldiers in the team, right? I mean, if you made so just flags could decide your ticket number, you would get an infinite army vs infinite army.

However, perhaps +15 tickets every time you capture a flag should be nice. And I belive this would encourage flag play. Perhaps we could make whoever had the flag before to lose 15 tickets as well, so as to remind them of the importance of falling back to keep their flag.



BTW story in Asad Khal, yesterday late night/early evening, Chicago Hardcore. We were IDF. We killed a bunch of guys. But we never, NEVER even STARTED capturing mansion (the flag didn't go down at all in like, 15 minutes or so). We won 27-0.