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Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 07:35
by Celestial1
**Enemy Wall of Text, incoming!**

Currently I find that it is far too difficult for any armor to support the infantry, because of constant AT threats.
With 2 HATs, TOWs, enemy vehicles, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep your big metal buddy alive even though his job is to keep you alive.

My suggestion is to alter the role of the Heavy Anti-Tank kit to suit a more specialized purpose: working in small, dedicated teams, to focus on taking out high-priority armor threats such as tanks.
These changes would change how AT kits are used, making it less likely to see highly-specialized AT equipment in a regular infantry squad, and also seeing them used more sparingly and tactically to make sure the shot counts.

There are various methods, for each faction individually, to achieve this effect. For instance, take the US Army. If you were to remove 1 HAT kit, but perhaps replace it with a Javelin, it becomes a very, very useful and powerful kit, but becomes much more specialized (needing to be used from vantage points, from larger distances, etc) and much more valuable (only 1, you'd certainly not want to waste a shot with a tank rolling up on friendlies, or lose the kit to the enemy).
For factions like the Chinese or Russians, who do not have any AT weapons with guiding systems or something to compensate, they might keep 2 kits, or perhaps a better solution: 1 kit that reallocates in 5 minutes (half the time), so it's still limited to 1 on the battlefield at a time, but is much more available overall.
For factions such as the Taliban/Insurgents/Militia, because of their use of less sophisticated AT weapons, they can keep 2 kits or even increase if desired (not implying it should be, but that it is an option).

These changes will make it more beneficial for AT to be used in small dedicated groups whose purpose is to stealthily move to a point where they can set up the weapon, fire at the enemy armor from where they do not expect it, and pack up and leave quickly to avoid being caught. Rifleman Anti-Tank kits will become more commonplace in squads, where their lower power leaves for more fighting between teams and higher survivability rates for APCs and IFVs that play their cards right (There's a lot of LATs available, and they do sufficient damage to APC/IFV, but they're never used because of the abundance of HAT kits!).






And a little more related suggestioning:
1) Add range indicators, where proper, on the sights of unguided AT, so that it is easier for players to use unguided AT (For instance, the Russian RPG-26 has 3 levels on it's ironsight, but the top one is the only one that actually relates to anything; The PLA HAT's scope could have range markers on it as well); Using Mosquill's grenadier system, a tilting-sight such as the RPG-26's can be achieved, and perhaps something with the PLA HAT's scope can be achieved. Close range LAT weapons, such as the AT4, if they don't possess that ability, can retain the single sight style which gives each AT system a unique trait.
2) Giving the faction their most formidable AT weapon system for HAT |OR| Balancing the differences through availability and such. If PLA/RUS had a more powerful AT, then it would be implemented with the same ideas as the Javelin. The reason for this is to compensate for the lower numbers and to make their role as specialized as possible. More powerful AT weapons could be phased in as they are created (I know there is a Javelin model though it may not be up to par, etc).
3) Is it perhaps possible to make reloading HAT slower; it occurred to me that if it was possible, you could make it so that the HAT actually holds "5 rounds", but can only fire once all 5 are loaded, and firing expends all 5. Sort of like how the CSBs work by firing 2 regular crates for the one bridge section, though I don't know if that's a vehicle-only thing.

(And, in the case that team-specific kit allocations aren't possible, then all of the actual weapons could be the same [still SRAW, NLAW, etc] but still reduced to 1 kit at a time; the "better" weapons like the Javelin, for example, would help so that the 1 kit can still be powerful enough to do it's job alone, but also so that it becomes more of a hurt if it is lost.)

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 08:59
by richyrich55
Celestial1 wrote:**Enemy Wall of Text, incoming!**


No kidding.



I doubt there will be a Javelin put in the mod. But I would LOVE to see that grenadier aiming system applied to the LAT's. Seriously. I only get hits with them when the enemy armor/whatever is within 100 meters because I can't judge the distance beyond that. Either put that system on the LAT's or put some kind of markings that show you where to aim. They don't have to be exact, they could be like the current grenadier "sights" where there's a whitish rectangle with significant distance marks (100, 200, 300). Now apply that to the LAT's and you will make ALOT of people very, VERY, happy.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 16:41
by goguapsy
I like how it is. HAT kits are already a headache if lost to the enemy (one day we had 4 HAT kits on the Chinese team on Barracuda. No APC layer).

Also, Javelins are considered overpowered.

Gameplay > LOLs > Realism.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 16:51
by Serbiak
You also only have one shot in the HAT so it´s not like you could just go out and start shooting the rounds.
If close to a fortification with crates I think it´s just fine that it´s well defended.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 17:13
by snooggums
If the team has one HAT type kit and the enemy takes it you are left with zero. If you have one, and the tank is on the other part of the 4km map, then you have one ineffective HAT kit. The reason there are two is so that there might be AT in more than one part of the map.

The deployed TOW is a different issue altogether, but yes the increase in AT has made driving any kind of armor around less reliable since there are now 4 locations that could have tank killing shots plus all the LATs.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 18:41
by killonsight95
i really do think there should only vbe 1 HAT per team since nowadays we have TOW's its less needed to have 2 HAT's on teams with TOW's as deployables. Tanks in real life are like big things that you wanna stay away from but in game its just like
"omg tank... oh wait its gone"
this is because many things in game can kill a tank. Within a 4x4 km map you have:
- upto 4 TOW's (or 3???)
- upto 2 HAT's
- upto 60 mines on a conventional team (more if insurgent)
- 20 C4's (not really a huge threat as it requires a lot of patenice)
- Jet's or helis/other CAS
- atrillary + JDAM

all of this in a 4x4 km map at the most plus only having 32 ish poeple per team anyway.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 19:25
by Tarantula
I do agree with the general idea
MOST IMPORTANT SUGGESTION - have 1 HAT kit per team
Doesnt necessaraly need to involve the introduction of a Javelin , just increase the effectiveness of the current hat kits: small useful gadgets to make it not necessaraly easier, just more effcient to identify and kill armoured targets would sprout specialised AT teams similary to sniper teams :
1, Range Finder on the scope
2, A kind of box/cross that appears over any vehicle to simulate a FLIR/heat source similar to how stationary AA have a cross.
Also maybe more damage to tanks? takes two direct HAT hits to kill a tank but in terms of changing the role of the HAT kit in general, instead of being a wounding tool maybe it should have a higher kill rate?
Spitballin but i do agree with the OP

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 21:47
by ryan d ale
I like how it is now.

2 HAT Kits :)

I play in tanks a lot and play as HAT a lot and I enjoy both very much. Also, the idea of specialised AT teams again sadly breaks the number of players left to fill the slots in normal infantry teams and when you consider the ammount of CAS, JET, HELO squads at the start of any big map then I think you might think that implementing this idea might not be such a great idea...

Point being: We have enough specialised squads waiting around doing nothing at the main base and now we divide the rest of the team up that doesn't need to wait vehicles to repsawn.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 21:56
by snooggums
With the increase in AT brought about by the free TOWs, vehicle points values should simply be lowered or removed. There is little chance for them to make back their points when friendly TOWs and HATs are most likely killing enemy vehicles and they can only kill so much infantry before they are hit by an enemy TOW or HAT. The time to spawn penalty is plenty at this point, maybe a few points for heavy armor like tanks and TOW APCs.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 22:17
by Tarantula
ryan d ale wrote: Point being: We have enough specialised squads waiting around doing nothing at the main base and now we divide the rest of the team up that doesn't need to wait vehicles to repsawn.
But you also find that teams/squads of infantry with the current system of 2, fairly easy to use HATs run off on their own to HAT hill or around the map. The introduction of a more specialist orientated HAT kit similar to a sniper should inspire more 2 man "HAT squads" as upposed to one random guy running off away from his squad or setting up in the middle of the map.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 22:27
by Tarantula
Honestly at the mo as a tank/ifv because of the amount of AT uuuvrywhere i feel as if instead of being a huge metal beast of war im a sniper with a big gun, constantly having to pop smoke and run after everyshot.
move left, in view of TOW,
move right, MINES,
stay still, the Spandrels hunting me down like a b*t*h
I can brush off a LAt and stay in the fight, Two HAT's on the other hand and im back to running. Instead of increasing the killing power of the infantry to kill armour i think what im suggesting would create a good mobile tank killing platform for inf while keeping all other normal inf squads on their back foot, at a disadvantage.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-16 23:20
by Conman51
I agree on 1 HAT kit per team, as a dedicated infantry dude, i would really like tanks to help stay and support, but this almost never happens due to SO MUCH AT threat to tanks

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 03:18
by CastleBravo
I just want the HAT to be more difficult to reload. I don't like the current system where all it takes is another rifleman with a single ammo bag to rearm a HAT. I would rather see the HAT kit only rearm off of supply crates, or even only rearm at a vehicle depot.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 06:12
by Imchicken1
Yeah, changing the HAT to 1 per team will greatly improve the use of Tanks and APC's. Or the idea of only re-arming it at the repair depot

As many of you will probably think "But that leaves sooooo little defence against enemy armor," and "Infantry squads will cause no more caution to armor," don't forget about the two extremly powerful deployable TOW's. If placed correctly, they can provide alot of assistance against enemy armor

EDIT: Not to mention the LAT for everysquad. Plus, every map that has tanks generally has something equal to counter it (TOW humvee, Heli's, planes, other tanks, IFV's like bradley and BMP-3

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 06:13
by Myru
i like the current system.
With only one HAT in the team, crewmen might be less afraid of infantry actually posing a threat to their vehicle and start using unrealistic and stupid tactics such as driving into squads, trying to run over the inf while firing heat rounds at close range.
I've experienced this 2 days ago on Qwai, when our team lost the HATs due to lonewolfs taking them away from the center of action and enemy apcs were able to pull off **** like that, which is really annoying if your trying to properly lead a squad.

And it's not like infantry squads lack AT weapons when they're about to face armored threats in real life.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 06:38
by alberto_di_gio
Actually I'm also happy with the current system. With the TOWs and HATs around people are fearing much more. Instead of Ramboing all around the map they are focusing much more on teamwork and sticking with the infantries.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 10:36
by Excavus
alberto_di_gio wrote:Actually I'm also happy with the current system. With the TOWs and HATs around people are fearing much more. Instead of Ramboing all around the map they are focusing much more on teamwork and sticking with the infantries.
Infantry can't protect their huge metal beast forever. It's only a matter of time before Rambo with a HAT kit sneaks up behind and blows it up.

The vehicle should be protecting the infantry protecting the vehicle, and the enemy should fear the vehicle. Not the other way around. It is virtually impossible to stay alive for an entire game inside a vehicle since everyone and their grandmother has some form of AT perched on their roof.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 13:44
by Celestial1
snooggums wrote:If the team has one HAT type kit and the enemy takes it you are left with zero. If you have one, and the tank is on the other part of the 4km map, then you have one ineffective HAT kit. The reason there are two is so that there might be AT in more than one part of the map.

The deployed TOW is a different issue altogether, but yes the increase in AT has made driving any kind of armor around less reliable since there are now 4 locations that could have tank killing shots plus all the LATs.
Which simply makes them use it more cautiously and effectively. With TOWs being abundant already, they can keep the very powerful role they have, which can be easily avoided if infantry is screening and spots the TOW before it can do damage. TOW is still very well present at this point, but HAT now becomes much less used amongst regular infantry.
End result: TOW becomes the primary defensive AT weaponry, LAT becomes primary offensive AT weaponry. HAT becomes a special tool to deal with specific problems, like a tank blocking the advance of infantry; the HAT team moves to the tank's flank, sets up in a concealed position, takes out the target and moves off; infantry moves up, everybody happy.
richyrich55 wrote:I doubt there will be a Javelin put in the mod.
Javelin isn't at all a required part of this suggestion. It simply helps add some restrictions and value to the kit.
(eg. Javelin is extremely powerful, but is better used from much longer ranges than a SRAW. This forces the AT team to set up further away, but find a position from which they can still lock onto the target. The further away, the more obstacles in the way of the line of sight. More buildings, more trees, more hills; they'll all make it more difficult to achieve a good lock. The further towards the flank/backside of the tank means a better chance of a good line of sight, as a trade-off of a higher risk of being discovered and hunted.)

Even then, since many of the factions don't have this sort of advanced weaponry, they don't have to be changed at all; the SRAW and etc can stay just as they are. It's just an idea to help specialize the role more, to make it a bit more difficult to use, requiring more thought and strategy to accomplish a task with it.
ryan d ale wrote:Point being: We have enough specialised squads waiting around doing nothing...
Takes 2-3 people max to run an effective AT team. Just like a sniper team might, but they play a much more impacting role on the battlefield.
snooggums wrote:With the increase in AT brought about by the free TOWs, vehicle points values should simply be lowered or removed.
I disagree. They should still play cautious, they should still be wary of their armor. However, by removing one HAT, you give them a significantly higher chance of survival.



Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Keep it going.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 14:24
by Minion508
I think a side arm woould do this class good. Hes got no defense at all against infantry.

Re: Changing the role of Anti-Tank

Posted: 2010-06-17 16:40
by Imchicken1
Minion508 wrote:I think a side arm woould do this class good. Hes got no defense at all against infantry.
The HAT kit has it's primary weapon (depending on what faction) such as the M4, G3A3, L85, or M16 (Not including the insurgent/chinese guns)