Project Reality Forums

hi,

ive been playing a lot of yamalia the last days/weeks and i came to realise that this map is neither fun to me nor it seems very realistic.

realism factor:
why would either one of these factions care to fight for a land full of nothing more than trees and grass, with no strategic use at all. i mean both factions are sending transport choppers, apcs, tows (which arent really cheap in rl) and loads of light vehicle/infantry to fight for such a place.
possible cases:
1) both are attacking and meet there:
at least one would have the brilliant idea to fall back and wait for the others since in those terrain the defender always wins (look at gameplay factor for more).
2) one is defending:
the other faction would definitly move around that area, because taking it is of no use, since there is nothing there that would be of any strategic use. besides they would lose like 3-5 times the forces the enemy would lose (in my country we count 1 to 3 losses when attacking a non urban area, but that place can be more easy be defended)

gameplay factor:
the reason why it is no fun to me that, if not one team is overwhelming the other, assuming you have pretty much equal teams, not a single flag would be taking after all have been taken, because - and thats the point - you can defend way to easily for these reasons:
1) you can hide everywhere, means the attacker, who is moving can be seen easily, the defender cant and slowly taking such a place isnt possible at all. we're talking about ~1300 square meters per flag, beside once compromised reinforcements can be called. one sq could hide at the edge of the flag jus to stop the whole enemy team from capping until reinforcements arrive.
2) lat can take out apcs easily, so the team can has theoretically 13 (9 lat, 2 hat, 2 tow, leaving out other apcs) weapons that can kill an apc
3) fortifications are overpowered, pretty much untakeable. because of the zoom and the
pentrating power a single hmg can easily wipe a whole sq in 5 seconds, if well placed you can cover 180 degrees at a minimum effectivily which leaves the rest of the defenders with some more foxholes to be a barrier to the back of the hmgs.
4) any long range fire is worthless because its all ground based (letting out "steel rain" choppers which would just be freekills for any tow, good hat shot). assuming the enemy is intelligent enough to build its base inside some wood:
- snipers cant hit shit because they dont see shit
- lavs cant hit shit, even with good markers, because there are too much trees
- same for hats, tows, grenadier, hmgs, lmgs....
- there are no air based engagement possibilities
5) the only - partly - effective way of attacking a flag is calling an area attack on it, which would make an attack possible only every 40/60mins (im not sure if theres jdam or arty) and even that can be blocked with a second well placed fob

there are various other reason which i may add in later posts, that i cant think of atm.
i would really appreciate that there wouldnt be 1 sentence posts like "i like yamalia", neither any posts the authors havent thought about, i really want a proper discussion.

furthermore i have to say that i really love this game, i bow before the skill that the devs seem to have to make some things possible i couldve never imagined with the bf2 engine, this posts shouldnt be an offense to anyone.

regards, skull

Thread moved to Map Feedback section.

well the realism is debatable, the map started as a marsh however there was a zfighting issue with the shalow water, there is not a comprehensive storyline in PR so you don't know the reasons behind the engagement, perhaps the Russians built the trenches due to the Canadians attempting a flanking manouvre or whatever, who knows. armies fight over other things apart from cities, missile silos etc...

1) you can hide everywhere, means the attacker, who is moving can be seen easily, the defender cant and slowly taking such a place isnt possible at all. we're talking about ~1300 square meters per flag, beside once compromised reinforcements can be called. one sq could hide at the edge of the flag jus to stop the whole enemy team from capping until reinforcements arrive.

its not hard to find dudes on this map if you move slow and careful, don't forget tools like the GLTD and UAV.

2) lat can take out apcs easily, so the team can has theoretically 13 (9 lat, 2 hat, 2 tow, leaving out other apcs) weapons that can kill an apc

not different to other maps in this respect really....though I'd love to see 1x tank per team P

3) fortifications are overpowered, pretty much untakeable. because of the zoom and the
pentrating power a single hmg can easily wipe a whole sq in 5 seconds, if well placed you can cover 180 degrees at a minimum effectivily which leaves the rest of the defenders with some more foxholes to be a barrier to the back of the hmgs.

erm....I think thats the point of HMGs....how about trying to come in from a different angle? if all else fails, god invented artillery.

- snipers cant hit shit because they dont see shit
- lavs cant hit shit, even with good markers, because there are too much trees
- same for hats, tows, grenadier, hmgs, lmgs....

erm...so now everything cant see everything...if that was true no one wuld die

- there are no air based engagement possibilities

maybe not all maps need air fighting, though I actually enjoy Chinook hunting in a mi17

Personally I love this map because

1) it has clear infantry safe zones and open ground encouraging mechanised infantry
2) you can hide effectively, giving you more choice in strategy
3) its got a nice ambiance, unique to other maps
4) the trenches are really great CQB fun, where you won't get skewered from long range

my only problems with the map are that APCs act a bit like tanks - since there aren't any tanks and the large number of AT guns on the map does give the defenders a bit more of an advantage, which adds to the TOW-Wars gameplay which I consider a bit meh.

Hes right about how easy it is to defend. Just find urself a tree and wait, no1 will stay prone 99% of the time while attacking/approaching flag and no1 will check every goddamn tree every 10 meters, making it very easy to ambush attackers.

I do like Yamalia simply bcuz it has AKs, BTRs and favors ninjas. Love how it takes coordination between squads when attacking, its easy to flank, so as long as u let other ppl know where the enemies are and suppress, they can easily flank and finish off the defenders, problem is the price u pay to find out where they are

About tank APCs.. Last Yamalia round I played, I was drivin a BTR and we just capped some flag and had to move on, there was a squad by me, but they called a chopper even tho I offered em a ride.
Who the hell needs APC trans when u can use a choppa that wont get hit by HAT/LAT so easily, moves 5x faster and has just as much armor as most APCs. Srsly, in 0.9 choppers became flying APCs, I hardly ever see a chopper get disabled while smoking nowdays. Ive hit a Lynx with RPG just for it to fly back to main while smoking and repair.. not even talking about the Chinok which has more armor than a BTR.
I never tried running mech inf, so w/o inf in my BTR squad all ive got left to do is roam around blue guys cuz no1 wants APC trans.

i cant seem to understand the yamalia hate, guys, it really is a good map, you just cant play it like a game of cod, use your Brains, use team work and take it slow. i have had some great intense fights there and i just dont get the hate a bout not being able to see people.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:I'd love to see 1x tank per team P

ditto ditto ditto ditto !!!

I had one great round on Yamalia with me in an 12 man Infantry squad thanks to mumble, and a 3rd squad with 2 APCs for transport and fire support.
I think we only got wiped out once by a BTR80 ambush, but overal we did really great.



but then again...that was only once....

One possible reason why they are fighting for yamalia is because there is like 90% of russian natural gas and some of the oil too. But i dont care about reasons because there can be million different reasons to fight for any of the maps, just use your imagination and pick one what satisfies your needs. And its just tiny 4km area in siperia, tiny tiny tiny tiny square... the battle area can be much larger than you see in the map, map is featuring just tiny battle between russia and canada among huge frontline area.

Flag areas could be made smaller so its easier to find the enemy whos hiding in the flag area.

Any long range weapon like APC, sniper, HMG, TOW is like overpowered in open bog areas, and very weak in forest areas, but there is always multiple ways to deal with em.
APCs being used as tanks is not because of the map, its because of the gameplay design, normally IFV and APCs would be fighting with infantry, but in PR they are used alone without infantry 99% of the time.

I think the reason for fighting at Yamalia is that it is a some where in between something valuable and the attacking force.

thx to jigsaw for moving, kinda missed that there is a map feedback section, sry

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Rudd;1386192']
its not hard to find dudes on this map if you move slow and careful, don't forget tools like the GLTD and UAV.[/quote]
you cant see a person hiding under a tree on uav. and i dont think you want to check every single tree there is in - as i said - 1300 squaremeters with your gltd.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote: erm....I think thats the point of HMGs....how about trying to come in from a different angle? if all else fails, god invented artillery.

i dont think i have to quote myself at this point

[R-CON]Rudd wrote: erm...so now everything cant see everything...if that was true no one wuld die

thats not what i said, i said there is no possibility for long range fire against any targets which would lower the effectivity of hmgs, tows, even foxholes by a damn lot


[quote="Nebsif""]
Who the hell needs APC trans when u can use a choppa that wont get hit by HAT/LAT so easily, moves 5x faster and has just as much armor as most APCs. Srsly, in 0.9 choppers became flying APCs, I hardly ever see a chopper get disabled while smoking nowdays. Ive hit a Lynx with RPG just for it to fly back to main while smoking and repair.. not even talking about the Chinok which has more armor than a BTR.
I never tried running mech inf, so w/o inf in my BTR squad all ive got left to do is roam around blue guys cuz no1 wants APC trans.[/quote]
thats not the topic of that thread, though id like to see one discussing the different armor capabilities of various vehicles

[R-DEV]Deer wrote:Flag areas could be made smaller so its easier to find the enemy whos hiding in the flag area.

that sounds like a good plan, though these little areas would be imo still way too easy to defend

'[R-DEV wrote:Deer;1386304']
Any long range weapon like APC, sniper, HMG, TOW is like overpowered in open bog areas, and very weak in forest areas, but there is always multiple ways to deal with em.

my point was exactly that these fortifications are way too strong even in that small area:
1) the tow is pretty hard to see, especially for an approaching apc, which makes the apc pretty much a freekill. on wide open terrains you can call snipers, air support to help out with the tow. even with some skill the tow shouldnt be a too big problem for an apc.
2) the hmg can be easily taken out over long range because it definitly loses effetiveness because of its accuracy, while in forest everything that moves into the hmgs sight is a freekill. on wide open terrain any apcs tank or anything that the hmg cant kill fast enough can take out the hmg pretty easily which isnt possible inside a forest where the highest priority targets of an apc are at weapons

regards, skull

User received a warning for flaming other members, for the record user was asked via PM @ 3am yesterday to remove part of this post and failed to comply - Jigsaw

I don't really see all the problems you say about this map. It is full of big wooded "islands" surrounded by open grass fields which allows both long range armored fight and cover/CQB for infantry and this sounds like fun to me. I also like it cuz there's not a lot of assets, thus allowing some epic infantry fights.

i retract my statement. and apologize to the forum.

anglo.


User received a warning for flaming another forum member - Jigsaw

anglomanii wrote:Dear Mr Skull,
the reason you get short direct responses to your post is simple.

i dont care enough.

then why do you care posting? if you dont wanna be part of the discussion, why do you annoy anyone who does?

anglomanii wrote: you did not take into account that the map was designed to the way the mapper wanted it.

still the game is designed for the players and - at least i think so - the devs try to make the game comfortable for as much players as possible.

anglomanii wrote: in future it might be helpful to refrain from singling persons out in order to flame them. i dont appreciate it and neither does anyone else.

neither do i. i have already stated, why your post was useless. and your pseudo intellectuell flames, such a "dear mr..", "i am personally sorry to hear about your inability...." and so on, arent better in any way, they are even worse because i had a point you had none except from counterflaming.

if you want to further discuss that, please write me a pm, i want a discussion about the map and not this topic in this thread.

regards, skull

It's as hard for your enemies. What's the problem? If you fail at attacking, you can always fall back and start defending.

i think personaly, allmost every thing you said makes it a great map, the only thing that could be said is, that it probably would play better with longer rounds, but apart from that, its a nice map with slow tactical gameplay where the easy move and shoot does not work most of the time, and thats fine

Skull,

IMHO it is a good map, but needs more teamwork and a third party comms system than are rarely found to totally enjoy the experience.

Dbzao - how it should be done? YT

I agree that on most servers most the time it couldn't be like that. Hell guys refuse even to defend the last taken flag most the time.

As concerns the realism of the setting, I personally don't care, but in most wars battle are at some point over a pointless bit of land.

Skull wrote:then why do you care posting? if you dont wanna be part of the discussion, why do you annoy anyone who does?



still the game is designed for the players and - at least i think so - the devs try to make the game comfortable for as much players as possible.



neither do i. i have already stated, why your post was useless. and your pseudo intellectuell flames, such a "dear mr..", "i am personally sorry to hear about your inability...." and so on, arent better in any way, they are even worse because i had a point you had none except from counterflaming.

if you want to further discuss that, please write me a pm, i want a discussion about the map and not this topic in this thread.

regards, skull

Actually, the mod Project Reality isn't for the players, it's for the DEVs, they made it so they can play, the public(us) is just an added bonus.

Can we cut the attitudes please?

realism factor:
why would either one of these factions care to fight for a land full of nothing more than trees and grass, with no strategic use at all. i mean both factions are sending transport choppers, apcs, tows (which arent really cheap in rl) and loads of light vehicle/infantry to fight for such a place.
possible cases:
1) both are attacking and meet there:
at least one would have the brilliant idea to fall back and wait for the others since in those terrain the defender always wins (look at gameplay factor for more).
2) one is defending:
the other faction would definitly move around that area, because taking it is of no use, since there is nothing there that would be of any strategic use. besides they would lose like 3-5 times the forces the enemy would lose (in my country we count 1 to 3 losses when attacking a non urban area, but that place can be more easy be defended)

A lot of battles have been around 'useless' pieces of land, definitely not that unrealistic.

my point was exactly that these fortifications are way too strong even in that small area:
1) the tow is pretty hard to see, especially for an approaching apc, which makes the apc pretty much a freekill. on wide open terrains you can call snipers, air support to help out with the tow. even with some skill the tow shouldnt be a too big problem for an apc.
2) the hmg can be easily taken out over long range because it definitly loses effetiveness because of its accuracy, while in forest everything that moves into the hmgs sight is a freekill. on wide open terrain any apcs tank or anything that the hmg cant kill fast enough can take out the hmg pretty easily which isnt possible inside a forest where the highest priority targets of an apc are at weapons

regards, skull

Defenders get an advantage; is that really so bad? This map is perfect for mechanised infantry and by using it you can do greatly on this map.

Guys hiding in trees are indeed annoying. If they however take out your whole squad; you're doing something wrong. Entire squads hiding can be countered simply by bringing an APC behind you or moving slowly and spread out. Not only the defenders can use the trees to their advantage. If the attackers use the woods as cover for the emplacements, then you wouldn't get killed by those that often.

My problem with the map is that you often lose because a single squad keeps attacking an objective and loses tickets; it's however a problem that happens often in PR. The map can turn into quite the stalemate sometimes, which is unfortunate. A well organised attack can defeat this though.

The map could use a bit of tweaking, but the map can definitely be fun and it's unique compared to the other PR maps.

yamalia is a very long and slow map which compared to other maps in PR gives it the boring aspect, i myself am not a fan of it and have seen servers cleared out multiple times when it gets played, the fact that its all infantry in a perfect tank environment clearly has something to do with it and also you sit around in an apc getting to your destination only to get blown up after waiting 5 mins and you cant really walk to attack cuz it takes forever, really jus doesnt do it for me either

I've just had to hand out a couple infractions for posts in this thread, the attitude displayed by some members here has been unacceptable.

For the record moderation of the forums should be left to the moderation team, if you believe someone has broken the forum rules in a particular post then use the report post function and one of us will decide whether that is the case.

E-penises will be put back in their owners pants from now on.

in my opinion yamalia is one of the best maps in PR right now.

it favors mechanized infantry and teams with good support players delivering crates.

the fortifications make for excellent defense points while one can indeed crack them. if nothing helps, use arty.

the fact that you can hide properly makes for a better, more intense and slower game. if you want to clear an area, shoot the trees if necessary

one of the most fun battles in the tournament was on yamalia (though not so much fun for NATO probably).