Project Reality Forums

I've just played some skirmish, the few matches I had sparked this suggestion.

Definition of Tracers

Tracers are type of ammuntion that are modified to accept a small pyrotechnic charge in their base. The composition, ignited upon fireing, burns very brightly making the projectile visible in day or night. This enables the shooter to follow the bullet trajectory relative to the target in order to make corrections to his or her aim. Tracers were first adopted in heavier weapons such as Anti Air cannons or mounted machine guns, however they were found in smaller arms more and more often.

Observations

Rifleman, Officers, marksmen, Automatic Rifleman, Grenediers... well pretty much every kit available to Blufor and advanced opfor factions other then Sniper kits, have tracer ammuntion loaded in them (from my observations, havn't tested yet). I see this as unrealistic and in PR causes some gameplay scenerios that I deem very unlikey to occur in reality.

In what circumstances, would the US army issue a Frontline infantry squad with tracer ammuntion? To my knowledge the only soldier in a fire team that carries Tracers in his ammunution is a Automatic rifleman in the US army. This is a 4 bullets to one Tracer bullet ratio how ever. Im sure that Russia, Canada, Isreal, British etc all follow similiar lines.

Anyway the scenerios I mentioned earlier are these :

Man 1 engages Man 2.... Man 1 opens fire, Man 2 finds cover and is supressed, but he also finds Mans 1 postion as soon as Man1 begins to open fire because as the saying goes... Tracers work both ways. He begins to return fire and the classic crouch and stand battle begins...

In reality this would take place.

Man 1 engages Man 2.... Man 2 finds cover and is supressed. Man 2 calls for covering fire as he is supressed and is unable to locate the incoming fire.

My suggestion

I think that removing tracers for standard rifleman, medics officers etc for both Blufor and Advanced opfor factions would benefit gameply in PR in so many ways. I do however wish tracers to remain for automatic rifleman, as this would become more balanced for rifleman vs automatic rifleman scenerios and it also is akin to reality.

Benefits

1 : This would promote rifleman to be used more often for flanking maneuvers, as when they first begin to engage the enemies their postion remains concealed for a long enough time for them to effectively eliminate targets. Instead of the first round thats fired immediately giving away their position. Also this may encourage squad leaders to place rifleman on point more often or use proper military tactics to simply put it.

2 : This would also improve balance between rifleman and automatic rifleman fire fights. Countless times Ive seen a skilled automatic rifleman pick up 20 plus kills and a few deaths round after round. That being said, A m249 Saw is a powerful weapon. But In reality its louder, heavier and carries tracers as standard issue ammuntion and therfore fireing it gives away your pos. Too many times Ive seen, and partaken in zeroing in a automatic rifleman thats looking 40 to 70 degrees away from me and having the first shot that I fire giving my exact location to him because of the god damn tracers!

I am aware that recently Insurgents and Taliban have been stripped of tracers based on the argument that they wouldnt have access to such ammuntion. Which is completly true but still, why would they want it?

Thanks for reading.

Diabolos.

my support, as far as i know not everyone is issued with them

Military advisors I think would know a little more.. maybe they can share some insight =)

With British forces tracer is readily available to all. However it is down to the commander on the ground to make decision on when they are used.

The misconception with small arms tracers is that they burn for their full flight, this is not the case. They tend to burn between 70 to 450m, all dependant on the calibre and manufacture.

If you watch the embedded video from the latest sound recording trip, curtosy of Sofad, you see when the Warrior chain guns fire there is a delay from when the round leaves the muzzle until the tracer starts to burn.



I'm unsure if the game engine will handle this delay but to be honest I don't really find tracers in PR to effect game-play too much, or is that just my crappy graphics card?

I can on speak for British Forces but this is what happens at the moment.

[R-DEV]strima wrote:With British forces tracer is readily available to all. However it is down to the commander on the ground to make decision on when they are used.

Exactly my point, My argument isn't based on wether if they are readily available or not. But based on the fact that tracers are only used in special cases with men on the ground.

These cases are ussualy night operations where you can get tracers that are only visible to people with night vision goggles.

All im saying is that tracers for infantry aren't needed, unrealistic and causes some gameplay elements which IMO are very vinilla-ish. But its up to the devs to decide wether its a major factor, or just factor they wish to change.

I disagree.
Not with it being.. unrealistic. (im not sure how realistic it is)
But with the idea.

I think gameplay would be worsened.
I feel this because, so many times i have been stuck behind a rock/tree/toilet whatever, and not able to move. Heck, i miss most of the tracers that fly at me. But its so frustrating to die, and have no idea where it came from. At least with tracers, we have a chance to locate the location of the incoming fire, and return fire.

The insurgent kits, for the most part, dont have tracers, and they also are not meant to be fired 500+ meters. They are meant for CQB, and its quite effective with that.


What im trying to say is I feel that with the tracers removed, these epic gunfights that break out, might not happen because the chance is so much less that they can find your location and accurately defend them selfs from you.

When you take the time to plan a coordinated assault you don't want or expect an 'epic gun fight'

There is already a pretty big aural cue as to where you are shooting from, adding tracers to the mix makes it very difficult to execute a stealthy assault.

Also you can't shoot at LB's with tracers or you give away your squad's position to everybody on the map.

/likes this

Geneve Convention prohibate the use of tracers against human target, of course it dosent mean you're doing a war crime each time you fire a machine gun against somone. But actualy using ONLY tracers to shoot people is against the convention since the tracers have chemical in it to make it trace wich in theory will cause uneeded pain.

Whats not prohibited is when you do have tracers mixed with balls. But since its PR lol you dont realy need to rely on tracer for marking, when you got 3d marker

i would like to note that CF rifleman do not normally carry tracers, i have heard that they are issued tracers over seas but not evenly distributed within the mags (a popular setup according to my instructors is the first 2 rounds of each mag are tracers.) i say tracers for riflemen should be removed or if possible like said before first 2 of each mag

i dont agree with this, i think it will try to make people try to be stealthy with their kit and go lone wolf with it. Like the marksman kit, which doesnt have tracers by the way.



Tracers arent used only to correct fire, they are also used to show friendlies where the enemy you are firing at is. As far as i know form what ive read and heard, soldiers like this, and would much rather take the tracers

Hotrod525 wrote:Geneve Convention prohibate the use of tracers against human target, of course it dosent mean you're doing a war crime each time you fire a machine gun against somone. But actualy using ONLY tracers to shoot people is against the convention since the tracers have chemical in it to make it trace wich in theory will cause uneeded pain.

Whats not prohibited is when you do have tracers mixed with balls. But since its PR lol you dont realy need to rely on tracer for marking, when you got 3d marker

Un-needed pain? so apparently every shot has to be one shot one kill? =\

Conman51 wrote:Like the marksman kit, which doesnt have tracers by the way.

I thought it had ? I mean, everytime I get shot from a long distance and they miss I can see a trace (I think).. Had it with the MEC-marksman.
(correct me if I'm wrong)

Bringerof_D wrote:i would like to note that CF rifleman do not normally carry tracers, i have heard that they are issued tracers over seas but not evenly distributed within the mags (a popular setup according to my instructors is the first 2 rounds of each mag are tracers.) i say tracers for riflemen should be removed or if possible like said before first 2 of each mag

What you tend to find (from experience) is that the top two rounds of the magazine are 2 x tracer for accounting purposes. Ie, if you can see the top two rounds are tracer you know the following 28 rounds are still in the magazine and you have not dropped any.

Undies wrote:What you tend to find (from experience) is that the top two rounds of the magazine are 2 x tracer for accounting purposes. Ie, if you can see the top two rounds are tracer you know the following 28 rounds are still in the magazine and you have not dropped any.

my cousin (who serves in the British army) they also put one in after 15 rounds so they know when they're half emty and sometimes if they have enough they put one in 2 or 3 bullets towards the end of the mag. however i know that this is hardcoded ^^^^
i say that tracers should be removed from rifles or made less numbered in a mag such as maybe only 1 or 2 per mag

Hotrod525 wrote:Geneve Convention prohibate the use of tracers against human target, of course it dosent mean you're doing a war crime each time you fire a machine gun against somone. But actualy using ONLY tracers to shoot people is against the convention since the tracers have chemical in it to make it trace wich in theory will cause uneeded pain.

Whats not prohibited is when you do have tracers mixed with balls. But since its PR lol you dont realy need to rely on tracer for marking, when you got 3d marker

Can we get a source for this? Not saying ur wrong and ur prolly right but I have always been told tracers will destroy barrels if used regularly like regular ammo... have nvr heard about not being able to use tracers for anti personal.

And most US military put a tracer 3 rounds from the last so they know they are out of ammo in a fire fight.

Dev1200 wrote:Un-needed pain? so apparently every shot has to be one shot one kill? =\

The Geneva Convention is very liberal in it's thinking. They want war to be as "humane" as possible, as dumb as that sounds. For example, .50 Caliber's aren't supposed to be used for anti-personnel uses, although it does happen.

Anyway, on the tracer thing, I agree that if possible, tracers be in maybe 2 or 3 times in a magazine.

USMCMIDN wrote:Can we get a source for this? Not saying ur wrong and ur prolly right but I have always been told tracers will destroy barrels if used regularly like regular ammo... have nvr heard about not being able to use tracers for anti personal.

And most US military put a tracer 3 rounds from the last so they know they are out of ammo in a fire fight.

Tracers contain White Phosphorus, wich is against the convention, of course you can't be blame if you kill somone with a tracer, but ONLY using tracers is against G.C. due to its chemical properties. So basicly it would been a WP Anti-personal weapon kinda fucktop i know. I have never heard about barrel being destroyed cause of extansive tracers use.

I mean, take out the tracers will encourage more often sneaky tatics, but sneaky tatics are interesting, but it also encourage lone wolfing.

the lone worlf how survive (actualy a bit more time) are the sneaky ones. and giving it may advatage then. what is something, WE SHALL NOT DO.

hoever, for cruelty and squad sneaky tatics, i go up for it.

copy?

Just adding this in here:

But getting rid of tracers also makes ballistics 100% possible.

Very very very large added bonus.