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Infantry4Ever wrote:NO. Dont make the sapper kit limited. That would take away the fun of Insurgency. Maybe have a limited ammount of mines?

- Mine spam-(only iraq insurgents)
Mines are always a large problem to the BLUFOR on these maps. Always there are about 50-100 mines on the map at all times, this always stops the BLUFOR from patroling round the city. However taking away the mines completely would take away the insurgents main weapon atm. So here's my suggestion for this problem:

I'm not sure where you play, but I have never seen that many mines at anytime. Don't change anything with the sappers. I know this to be true because I exclusively play insurgency, and have since 0.85 which comes out to a few hundred hours...You can trust my opinions about this game mode.

- Caches being destroyed by vehicals-
Cashes are often destroyed by LB's, Tanks, TOWs and APC's with explosive shells. At least twice on most maps a vehical will destroy a cache without the help of infantry (justs sits there and pounds the place with HE or keeps dive bombing that area). I can't recall any stories of a Tank or LB finding and disposing a cache by itself. So heres my hopefully simple solution:

This one is reasonable

Make caches resist all explosive shells except hand thrown grenades. This way infantry will be forced to go in on foot and take it out with the support of the vehicals. But people won't take the vehicals anymore ... of course they will cause they want to be the player epica with the biggest gun.

- Caches being destroyed by lone wolfs-
Now this has always been a problem in insurgency as its easier to sneek in with one person rather than 6 correct? Well these lone wolfs are not only not realistic but hard to defend against. My solution? well it might be a bit of an odd one but here it goes:

Allow squad members destroy chaches without the incendary, (now you may think how will that stop them? well read on) insted have a Q or T menu option to "Destroy Object" it will drop the same thing like a rally point and/or the commander option to "Demolish" this could then be controlled by making the person who drops it only be allowed to drop it if say he/she had 4-5 teammates around him/her. Thus hopefully stopping the lonewolfing stupidity. Also keep the incedaries for destroying vehicals, this could be used for AAS to stop the wasting of incenaries/ammo on destroying assets at FOB's.

There really isn't anything about this we can change, it's not a gameplay problem. It's actually the lone wolf got lucky that the insurgents weren't defending.

-Caches being revealed to easly-

The BLUFOR will often concentrate all their firepower on a single point where a known cache is untill another is revealed and then the force splits to fight both or all go to get the easier one. This can be annoying for both team as usualy by the time the BLUFOR get there a hail of RPG's hit them or when they get there only 1-4 insurgents are defending because of thelarge attack on the other cache. This often creates a rushing attitude on the BLUFOR as they try to get there as quick as possible where as in real life a slower aproach with stealth and through patrols and other intellegance techniques the cache is found and disposed of. So my suggestion for this is:

Caches can only be revealed on the map when more than 4 BLUFOR team members have been in the same area within 100-200 M depending on area, for more than 4-6 minuetes (thus patroling?).
This time would then add up, say one squad stays in the area for 2 mins then leaves when another squad returns they only need to stay for 2-4 mins to reveal said cache.

No opinion

-Lack of control by BLUFOR-

The BLUFOR often have very little control out side their main bases because of the ease in which FOB's are destroyed because they can't defend themselves with the lack of troops to effectivly defend one. Also as said before the BLUFOR are often seen "patroling" and scouting which i don't see in PR very often. Therefore my suggestion for this is:

Introduce flags (i know its already been suggested), but when the BLUFOR capture these buildings they can only be captured back by the insurgency if the commander is in the radius with 8 other insurgent members, resembling tkaing control of the area and the commander holding talks with the locals organising safty pay/scare tactics etc.
The more flags the BLUFOR hold the more transport/vehicals they get. The more flags the insurgents have the longer its takes for the BLUFOR to discover a cache this can be done by increasing the time needed to be in the area of a cache to find it, linking it back to my previous idea ^^^^ or slowly reduce intel points for the BLUFOR (locals giving wrong information/distracting them more).
depending on the map the flags should be random and only 4-6 placed on each map, they should be inside and outside of the city to about an even ratio if possible.

As well as the above but FOB's should only be able to be destroyed by arty, cell leaders, sappers, medics/civies (civies can throw 5 rocks at the radio?), GARY and commanders.

The domes of death for most of the maps have been largely increased, your FOBs are usually guarded by the CROW humvee and TOWs.... Everything is fine how it is. Although I'd like to see something with flags again... Korengal was really exciting to assault the optional flag when blufor was holding it.... The flag held bonuses for both teams when they held it.

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Okay guys what do you think of my ideas? be kind, it took me a while ot think of some of the solutions and to find a way to try to find a way to possibly let them work without hardcodedness. These suggestions were thought up after many insurgent round on both teams, and reading through some of the topics/posts made recently about it.

Make the Sapper kit limited to 5 per team, also reduce the maximum mine limit to 5 (changing it from 30), this would reduce the maximum mines put down by sappers per map to 25.

Cashes are often destroyed by LB's, Tanks, TOWs and APC's with explosive shells.

-Lack of control by BLUFOR-

The BLUFOR often have very little control out side their main bases because of the ease in which FOB's are destroyed because they can't defend themselves with the lack of troops to effectivly defend one. Also as said before the BLUFOR are often seen "patroling" and scouting which i don't see in PR very often. Therefore my suggestion for this is:

Introduce flags (i know its already been suggested), but when the BLUFOR capture these buildings they can only be captured back by the insurgency if the commander is in the radius with 8 other insurgent members, resembling tkaing control of the area and the commander holding talks with the locals organising safty pay/scare tactics etc.
The more flags the BLUFOR hold the more transport/vehicals they get. The more flags the insurgents have the longer its takes for the BLUFOR to discover a cache this can be done by increasing the time needed to be in the area of a cache to find it, linking it back to my previous idea ^^^^ or slowly reduce intel points for the BLUFOR (locals giving wrong information/distracting them more).
depending on the map the flags should be random and only 4-6 placed on each map, they should be inside and outside of the city to about an even ratio if possible

killonsight95 wrote:After reading some of the feedback threads about Insurgancy i've come up with something that will hopefully change how insurgency is played and made more realistic.

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The problems and some possible solutions:

- Mine spam-(only iraq insurgents)

Mines are always a large problem to the BLUFOR on these maps. Always there are about 50-100 mines on the map at all times, this always stops the BLUFOR from patroling round the city. However taking away the mines completely would take away the insurgents main weapon atm. So here's my suggestion for this problem:

Make the Sapper kit limited to 5 per team, also reduce the maximum mine limit to 5 (changing it from 30), this would reduce the maximum mines put down by sappers per map to 25. I know this sounds like nothing, but remember they still have IED's which are underused compared to RL. I don't have any sources on the availbility of mines to the insurgents but i imagine that it isn't as limited as i suggested however for gameplay i belive it would make a more realistic enviroment.
Some of you might be crying but why take away their only useful weapon? well its just to useful, the BLUFOR have no way to disarm them without risking a CE which risks 1337 bomb bikes. Maybe if a mine remover kit was introduced the amount of sappers/mines should increase.

yes the mines are a real problem imho. I would like to see them taken away from the normal sapper kit and beeing for the arty-ied Kit exclusivly. ( and limit the amount to 5 or something like this) they are not used as ambush weapons but as areal deniel wapons ( while the conventional forces uses them mainly for ambuses an AAS :mad . The roads are full of mines and thus leading to no vehicle entering the city, not supporting the Infantry but turkyshoot insurgence (and civilians) from long range. The mines only blow up other insurgences rolling around in there shiny new technicals

- Caches being destroyed by vehicals-

Cashes are often destroyed by LB's, Tanks, TOWs and APC's with explosive shells. At least twice on most maps a vehical will destroy a cache without the help of infantry (justs sits there and pounds the place with HE or keeps dive bombing that area). I can't recall any stories of a Tank or LB finding and disposing a cache by itself. So heres my hopefully simple solution:

Make caches resist all explosive shells except hand thrown grenades. This way infantry will be forced to go in on foot and take it out with the support of the vehicals. But people won't take the vehicals anymore ... of course they will cause they want to be the player epica with the biggest gun.

Definitely agree. The Blufor have to search for the caches and confirm that they are taken out. And not while annihilating a entire block "mh.. smells like i just might have smashed a pile of guns."

- Caches being destroyed by lone wolfs-

Now this has always been a problem in insurgency as its easier to sneek in with one person rather than 6 correct? Well these lone wolfs are not only not realistic but hard to defend against. My solution? well it might be a bit of an odd one but here it goes:

Allow squad members destroy chaches without the incendary, (now you may think how will that stop them? well read on) insted have a Q or T menu option to "Destroy Object" it will drop the same thing like a rally point and/or the commander option to "Demolish" this could then be controlled by making the person who drops it only be allowed to drop it if say he/she had 4-5 teammates around him/her. Thus hopefully stopping the lonewolfing stupidity. Also keep the incedaries for destroying vehicals, this could be used for AAS to stop the wasting of incenaries/ammo on destroying assets at FOB's.

Well, Lonewolfs are a problem, but i disagree with your new system... the old one is quit good, the problem is the one "i have a grablinghook and a shotgun and plenty of incineries unlimited standalone ninja"-Kit and it will be limited the in 0.95, so lets see if this helps a bit.

-Caches being revealed to easly-

The BLUFOR will often concentrate all their firepower on a single point where a known cache is untill another is revealed and then the force splits to fight both or all go to get the easier one. This can be annoying for both team as usualy by the time the BLUFOR get there a hail of RPG's hit them or when they get there only 1-4 insurgents are defending because of thelarge attack on the other cache. This often creates a rushing attitude on the BLUFOR as they try to get there as quick as possible where as in real life a slower aproach with stealth and through patrols and other intellegance techniques the cache is found and disposed of. So my suggestion for this is:

Caches can only be revealed on the map when more than 4 BLUFOR team members have been in the same area within 100-200 M depending on area, for more than 4-6 minuetes (thus patroling?).
This time would then add up, say one squad stays in the area for 2 mins then leaves when another squad returns they only need to stay for 2-4 mins to reveal said cache.

I like. But on larger maps like 4x4 it would be to much to gather teh intel only by patroling. I would like to see a general intel gathering per time .. 1 point per minute plus points for arresting plus extra points for patroling and the more Blufor in 200m range of a cache are the more intel they gather. Would hopefully stop the slaughter of insurgence over long range just to rag up kills .. ähh.. gather intel. Shooting at insurgence to gather intel doesnt make any sence to me.

-Lack of control by BLUFOR-

The BLUFOR often have very little control out side their main bases because of the ease in which FOB's are destroyed because they can't defend themselves with the lack of troops to effectivly defend one. Also as said before the BLUFOR are often seen "patroling" and scouting which i don't see in PR very often. Therefore my suggestion for this is:

Introduce flags (i know its already been suggested), but when the BLUFOR capture these buildings they can only be captured back by the insurgency if the commander is in the radius with 8 other insurgent members, resembling tkaing control of the area and the commander holding talks with the locals organising safty pay/scare tactics etc.
The more flags the BLUFOR hold the more transport/vehicals they get. The more flags the insurgents have the longer its takes for the BLUFOR to discover a cache this can be done by increasing the time needed to be in the area of a cache to find it, linking it back to my previous idea ^^^^ or slowly reduce intel points for the BLUFOR (locals giving wrong information/distracting them more).
depending on the map the flags should be random and only 4-6 placed on each map, they should be inside and outside of the city to about an even ratio if possible.

mh.. no, capable flags in the insugency-mode only draging away parts of blufor and insurgence, and most of the time ending um costing tikets for the Blufor. For quick run-gun-and-die action play scirmish-mode.

As well as the above but FOB's should only be able to be destroyed by arty, cell leaders, sappers, medics/civies (civies can throw 5 rocks at the radio?), GARY and commanders.

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Okay guys what do you think of my ideas? be kind, it took me a while ot think of some of the solutions and to find a way to try to find a way to possibly let them work without hardcodedness. These suggestions were thought up after many insurgent round on both teams, and reading through some of the topics/posts made recently about it.

Thank you for you time in reading the topic,
Killonsight

killonsight95 wrote:Make the Sapper kit limited to 5 per team, also reduce the maximum mine limit to 5 (changing it from 30), this would reduce the maximum mines put down by sappers per map to 25. I know this sounds like nothing, but remember they still have IED's which are underused compared to RL. I don't have any sources on the availbility of mines to the insurgents but i imagine that it isn't as limited as i suggested however for gameplay i belive it would make a more realistic enviroment.

killonsight95 wrote: Cashes are often destroyed by LB's, Tanks, TOWs and APC's with explosive shells. At least twice on most maps a vehical will destroy a cache without the help of infantry (justs sits there and pounds the place with HE or keeps dive bombing that area). I can't recall any stories of a Tank or LB finding and disposing a cache by itself. So heres my hopefully simple solution:

killonsight95 wrote: Make caches resist all explosive shells except hand thrown grenades. This way infantry will be forced to go in on foot and take it out with the support of the vehicals. But people won't take the vehicals anymore ... of course they will cause they want to be the player epica with the biggest gun.

killonsight95 wrote: Now this has always been a problem in insurgency as its easier to sneek in with one person rather than 6 correct? Well these lone wolfs are not only not realistic but hard to defend against. My solution? well it might be a bit of an odd one but here it goes:

Allow squad members destroy chaches without the incendary, (now you may think how will that stop them? well read on) insted have a Q or T menu option to "Destroy Object" it will drop the same thing like a rally point and/or the commander option to "Demolish" this could then be controlled by making the person who drops it only be allowed to drop it if say he/she had 4-5 teammates around him/her. Thus hopefully stopping the lonewolfing stupidity. Also keep the incedaries for destroying vehicals, this could be used for AAS to stop the wasting of incenaries/ammo on destroying assets at FOB's.

mat552 wrote:I'm not sure where you've been playing, perhaps mines are common on other servers, but I'm a TG kind of guy and I only infrequently see mines on their server. If this truly is a problem, it is entirely possible to use a CE kit. Defend the engineer, and don't let him get out into the field with any C4 equipped. If you're facing an entrenched insurgent position, there's probably a cache there, and you should assault it in force from one direction while sneaking around back. More on that later.


i do play on TG and many other servers just because its TG doens't stop people laying down mines, fyi i've been in a mine squad and layed 150 mines ish around the city using the supply truck racking up kills with no skill needed. Have you ever heard that the insurgent main can re-arm the CE kit? hmmm guess not. Thats why it is never taken out.
Sneek round the back when it's mined, gaurded by another 15 insurgents with IED's and RPG's and all that other funky stuff

If all they are doing is firing randomly into buildings hoping for kills, punish them. Exploit the tremendously broken collaborator class to reset their score and prevent them from getting new kits after your squadmates hit them from the direction they aren't looking, courtesy of your attention getting antics.

fair enough here but it doesn't stop them from getting cache which is what they're after

They already resist these things
IEDs used to be able to kill caches through walls at distances of 25 meters or more, and dropping C4 from a helicopter was a surefire way to blow up a cache from 30+ meters! I fail to see why forcing the infantry to do something that a vehicle can do sometimes, but not all the time, is fair. That and RPGs. From..perhaps you guessed it..flanking angles.

have you ever heard of a tank kill a cahce irl? no thought not and like the guy said above you the infantry would wnat to check it anyway to make sure.

If you're talking about lone wolves that aren't in squads, that disciplinary action should fall to the server admins, because if they don't want to deal with it, you cannot correct the behavior. "Lone wolves" that are one or two players smart enough to exploit the fact that the insurgent team is defending from only a single angle shouldn't be punished because the insurgents wouldn't watch their back.
no i'm talking about the tatic where a squad will send one person into the insurgent mas pick up and insurgent kit and sneek their way in spec ops style which is not what PR is aiming for.

I'll respond to the rest of the points with a general blurb.

Insurgency as a concept is all about asymmetrical warfare. Right now, as of .917, Insurgency as a concept is far more about KDRs than even AAS. Bluefor are supposed to be the less numerous, technologically superior force fighting an illusive mob of relatively poorly equipped freedom fighters. Bluefor should only really have one compound "outside the wire" and it should always be constructed with the expectation that when the cache is destroyed, so is the FOB. In addition, despite having the technological superiority on their side, due to a relative lack of numbers (or tickets), successful Bluefor teams are far more sneaky and devious than an ins team.

In PR the mob is not illusive at all like you said they search for trouble.

Focusing 30 players in a solid attack force, pressuring from the east while sending one or two guys in from the west to quietly get in behind the mob, fire as little as possible, kill the cache, then exfiltrate to a holding position is not only a valid tactic, but a brutally successful one, second only to having the armor do the work.

So your saying here that sending two guys in to kill a weapons cache is done irl? could you find me at least 3 sources where this is done by none special forces.

Focusing 15-25 players into a spear that thrusts from a different direction each time, slowly wearing down the moral and supplies of the invading force while devoting the rest of the team to keep bluefor suppressed or out of supply is a great insurgent tactic, proven time and again to produce victory.

while this is a slightly realistic tactic often the main insurgent wepon is destroying the supply convoys which you do not see in PR. Often insurgents don't work in a team anyway.

All this nonsense about equalizing the teams could be accomplished much faster by forwarding it to one of the bland perfectly symetrical AAS maps (somehow two different armies, using lessons learned in separate corners of the world in different styles of conflict think to both bring the exact same forces to fight each other. This isn't a freak occurrence, this is how war works in PR).

we're not asking for equal teams we're asking for the insurgent team to have more of a chance and be a bit mroe of a realistic gamemode

tl;dr? Imbalance and equalize insurgency, receiv fantastic gamemode. Do this by promoting realistic roles from each force, not hardcoding them in. Insurgents are numerically superior and technologically inferior. Bluefor is the opposite, and that's all there is to it.

your kidding right? theres lots more to do with it such as the fact its an insurgency not a supported army with high level training and enough ammo to drown a small island, the Insurgency is the things you said yes but how could you promote these roles? with points... whats the point when you loose them after killing one civi by accident or some weird event. Even with points how would you incorperate these points then?

killonsight95 wrote:defending two caches from 1 lone wolf in a city can be nearly impossible with 32 people