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I'm happy to see so much discussion about insurgency. When I first posted wondering about whether or not insurgents were too conventional the new ideas and threads were exactly what I was hoping to see.

I've decided to put these other two threads that I've seen in here, for the purposes of discussing the ideas as a whole and getting some advice and feedback on this gamemode.

Remember, everything done in this mod has come from collaboration and ideas from people all over the world. Please share your thoughts here as well.

Here is one of the new threads.

SharpShooter13971 wrote:I was reading something about How Insurgents are too conventional in the forums and I decided to make a suggestion about it. (Id post a link to the thread but I don't know how)

If you've read the thread you know what I'm talking about. All insurgents are civilians so why not have a 5-10 minute "No-Fire" rule for the US/British unless of course the insurgents break the ROE of the collaborator. Caches can still be destroyed and searched for and Insurgents can place IEDs and Mines but if they are seen doing such they can be Killed, kinda like if a collaborator heals someone they can be killed within 30 secs of doing such without penalty.

My idea is make every insurgent a collaborator or "kit-less" at start, (you can be a sapper or whatever but you can killed without penalty if you do so)

It makes it more realistic and makes US/British team players have a more realistic feel to it all as well. All insurgents can still be arrested.

If you have any questions about my suggestion ask

I give credit to the thread below that gave me the Idea

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... ost1429583

Link to that discussion: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -idea.html

killonsight95 wrote:After reading some of the feedback threads about Insurgancy i've come up with something that will hopefully change how insurgency is played and made more realistic.

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The problems and some possible solutions:

- Mine spam-(only iraq insurgents)

Mines are always a large problem to the BLUFOR on these maps. Always there are about 50-100 mines on the map at all times, this always stops the BLUFOR from patroling round the city. However taking away the mines completely would take away the insurgents main weapon atm. So here's my suggestion for this problem:

Make the Sapper kit limited to 5 per team, also reduce the maximum mine limit to 5 (changing it from 30), this would reduce the maximum mines put down by sappers per map to 25. I know this sounds like nothing, but remember they still have IED's which are underused compared to RL. I don't have any sources on the availbility of mines to the insurgents but i imagine that it isn't as limited as i suggested however for gameplay i belive it would make a more realistic enviroment.
Some of you might be crying but why take away their only useful weapon? well its just to useful, the BLUFOR have no way to disarm them without risking a CE which risks 1337 bomb bikes. Maybe if a mine remover kit was introduced the amount of sappers/mines should increase.

- Caches being destroyed by vehicals-

Cashes are often destroyed by LB's, Tanks, TOWs and APC's with explosive shells. At least twice on most maps a vehical will destroy a cache without the help of infantry (justs sits there and pounds the place with HE or keeps dive bombing that area). I can't recall any stories of a Tank or LB finding and disposing a cache by itself. So heres my hopefully simple solution:

Make caches resist all explosive shells except hand thrown grenades. This way infantry will be forced to go in on foot and take it out with the support of the vehicals. But people won't take the vehicals anymore ... of course they will cause they want to be the player epica with the biggest gun.

- Caches being destroyed by lone wolfs-

Now this has always been a problem in insurgency as its easier to sneek in with one person rather than 6 correct? Well these lone wolfs are not only not realistic but hard to defend against. My solution? well it might be a bit of an odd one but here it goes:

Allow squad members destroy chaches without the incendary, (now you may think how will that stop them? well read on) insted have a Q or T menu option to "Destroy Object" it will drop the same thing like a rally point and/or the commander option to "Demolish" this could then be controlled by making the person who drops it only be allowed to drop it if say he/she had 4-5 teammates around him/her. Thus hopefully stopping the lonewolfing stupidity. Also keep the incedaries for destroying vehicals, this could be used for AAS to stop the wasting of incenaries/ammo on destroying assets at FOB's.

-Caches being revealed to easly-

The BLUFOR will often concentrate all their firepower on a single point where a known cache is untill another is revealed and then the force splits to fight both or all go to get the easier one. This can be annoying for both team as usualy by the time the BLUFOR get there a hail of RPG's hit them or when they get there only 1-4 insurgents are defending because of thelarge attack on the other cache. This often creates a rushing attitude on the BLUFOR as they try to get there as quick as possible where as in real life a slower aproach with stealth and through patrols and other intellegance techniques the cache is found and disposed of. So my suggestion for this is:

Caches can only be revealed on the map when more than 4 BLUFOR team members have been in the same area within 100-200 M depending on area, for more than 4-6 minuetes (thus patroling?).
This time would then add up, say one squad stays in the area for 2 mins then leaves when another squad returns they only need to stay for 2-4 mins to reveal said cache.

-Lack of control by BLUFOR-

The BLUFOR often have very little control out side their main bases because of the ease in which FOB's are destroyed because they can't defend themselves with the lack of troops to effectivly defend one. Also as said before the BLUFOR are often seen "patroling" and scouting which i don't see in PR very often. Therefore my suggestion for this is:

Introduce flags (i know its already been suggested), but when the BLUFOR capture these buildings they can only be captured back by the insurgency if the commander is in the radius with 8 other insurgent members, resembling tkaing control of the area and the commander holding talks with the locals organising safty pay/scare tactics etc.
The more flags the BLUFOR hold the more transport/vehicals they get. The more flags the insurgents have the longer its takes for the BLUFOR to discover a cache this can be done by increasing the time needed to be in the area of a cache to find it, linking it back to my previous idea ^^^^ or slowly reduce intel points for the BLUFOR (locals giving wrong information/distracting them more).
depending on the map the flags should be random and only 4-6 placed on each map, they should be inside and outside of the city to about an even ratio if possible.

As well as the above but FOB's should only be able to be destroyed by arty, cell leaders, sappers, medics/civies (civies can throw 5 rocks at the radio?), GARY and commanders.

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Okay guys what do you think of my ideas? be kind, it took me a while ot think of some of the solutions and to find a way to try to find a way to possibly let them work without hardcodedness. These suggestions were thought up after many insurgent round on both teams, and reading through some of the topics/posts made recently about it.

Thank you for you time in reading the topic,
Killonsight

Discussion link: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... build.html

For my addition to the discussion of ideas, I suggest the following which should overhaul much of insurgency.

Suggestion #1 Insurgent Cache Placement
HOW IT COULD WORK
-Allow insurgent cell leaders to place the cache the same way a rally is placed, by using a cell phone.
-At the start of the round, 2 caches are spawned randomly by the game engine.
-The insurgent players can, if they decide to, create a new cache by using the above method for a total of 3 caches on the map.
-There could be no fewer than 2 caches, or no greater than 3 caches active at a time.
-If the insurgent team places no caches, the appropriate caches must spawn automatically as they are now.
-If possible there should be a delay timer before the cache becomes an asset for the insurgent team. I suggest either 1-2 minutes to both simulate setting it up, and to prevent some exploits such as dropping it to get an RPG and to rearm constantly.
-There should also be a rule that prevents it from being placed too close to the insurgent main, how close is something debatable.
-Also, to be helpful, there should be an undo button that the cell leader can use in the 1-2 minutes before the cache is activated to fix any oopses.

Rationale
-Insurgents choose the spots where they fight.
-Currently caches tend to spawn in odd locations or places where the conventional forces can easily access and destroy them.
-The rally point system is a system that is already in game and it should be doable with the current setup of the mod.
-It creates new opportunities and new strategic choices for the insurgents. Should we have 3 places to defend, or should we have extra RPGs and weapons, etc.?

Cons
-It would require new code that may or not be possible to do.
-It could probably be exploited or glitched.
-It could make it very hard for Bluefor to win.

Suggestion #2: Remove revives from insurgent teams
HOW IT COULD WORK
-Remove epipens from collaborators.
-Remove the ability for insurgents to be revived to avoid insurgents from merely taking medic kits.

Rationale
-Insurgents are not trained battlefield combat medics
-The medic ingame currently is a representation of a system of immediate trauma care, medical evacuation, off front surgery hospitals, and a series of physical/mental therapy centers. Insurgents do not have all of these in terms of both equipment or infrastructure.
-Insurgent attacks frequently include suicidal tactics, so I don't think that medical treatment is one of the priorities.
-It would make them far less conventional and give a different edge to bluefor.
-It could speed the game up for insurgents, as they don't have to wait around for the medic to patch someone up.
-It also helps fix an issue I have with ROE in which it is basically ok to kill an unarmed doctor. (I'll admit, this is probably a personal objection and not a great logical one)

Cons
-Insurgent squad cohesion could be broken far easier with people needing to walk far from spawning places.
-It could make things too easy for bluefor as they will know that if the insurgent goes down, he will not get back up.

Suggestion #3: Make the collaborator kit essential and helpful outside of being a medic.
HOW IT COULD WORK
-Remove the Epipen, medic bag, and CPR hands.
-Add instead 8-10 field dressings (possibly dressings like the ones in this thread that don't heal the same amount as conventional faction dressings https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... gensy.html)
-Add a single bag of ammo
-Add a shovel
-Add a "staging area" placement tool
---A staging area placement tool would be a rally point that could be placed without having to be a squad leader.
---It would be an inventory item with a "Q" option that allowed the user to drop a staging area.
---It should require about 2 others to be within deployment distance
---It will not expire after 1 minute.
---It can be overrun
---There is only one per squad
---It must be rearmed at a cache or perhaps a hideout
---It cannot be replaced if the older one has been overrun for at least 2 min.

Rationale
-The dressings treat some wounds, and can stop bleeding out, but represent a limited form of healing which makes the insurgents seem to have bad equipment.
-Single bag of ammo gives an insurgent squad a bit of autonomy and lets an RPG gunner or sapper a lot when trying to set up ambushes. It also makes ROE much more understandable, shoot him if he had a bag out and was providing ammunition to people.
-Shovel it lets them construct hideouts and whatever else insurgents may get in the future if anything.
-Staging area placement tool
---This item allows insurgent squads to operate more autonomously from the main team.
---As insurgents operate in cells, (hence cell leader), they are usually more autonomous from a main team and this could reflect that.
---It allows insurgents to attack from different directions and keeps bluefor on their toes.
---Insurgency is meant to represent a battle without a typical front line, there are collaborators and civilians around. Attacks should be able to come from anywhere more easily.
---I suggest giving it to the collaborator as a way of making them useful, and to represent that without collaboration, either willing or coerced, of a civilian population an insurgency could not exist. It would be a parody of saying, "here use my house/backyard as a place to hold meetings, make bombs, and plan attacks."

Cons
-IT MUST NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR THE OTHER TEAM TO TAKE THE KIT AND PLACE RALLIES
---If the above cannot be done, then it is an idea without merit in my opinion.
-It could also make things too difficult for bluefor.
-It could encourage insurgents to not place hideouts.
-It would make the collaborator kit extremely useful for insurgent squads.
-It would take a weapon out of each insurgent squad that used it.

Suggestion #4: Remove insurgent team spotting with cell phone
HOW IT COULD WORK
-Allow cell phones to make a map marker but it cannot be seen by the entire team.
-It can only be seen by that squad
-Commander can still mark for the entire team

Rationale
-This is the most out there suggestion I'm making, and here is why.
-Insurgents operate in cells, rather than as an entire team.
-Most do not know of other cells and try to keep from being discovered as a way to compartmentalize information.
-With this, it is harder for them to coordinate with each other, especially without a commander.
-Insurgents also lack the communications equipment of many conventional forces and use them sparingly for risk of signal intercepts.
-Insurgent squads are more autonomous and to act quickly without getting orders from above or learning more from the team.
-It highlights a big advantage of bluefor in their communications and vertical command structure.
-It also highlights some bluefor slowness in that waiting for armor to link up with infantry, build a base, and move as one as it takes awhile to organize even with the benefits of a streamlined communication network.

Cons
-This idea seems to be going contrary to the steps taken in the mod where most changes are done to include the entire team. -- This suggestion is done for a good reason with a lot of thought though, so please don't dismiss it instantly.
-Insurgents may not be as likely to place hideouts for the entire team
-It would make insurgent commanders near essential when few want to play that role

Suggestion #5: Give RPGs two types of warheads to accomodate for extra RPGs given by a new placeable cache.
HOW IT COULD WORK
-Give 2 of the current HEAT RPG rounds to the kit.
-Also give either 1 or 2 Anti-personnel RPG rounds to the kit.

Rationale
-Both rounds are common in real life from what I understand from the following thread.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... heads.html
-This would make armor have a chance but still give insurgents extra RPG shooters.
-With 2 extra RPGs from a 3rd cache that would increase total RPG shooters from about 6-8 to 8-10. (2 RPGs per cache, and 2-4 at main base)
-The current system would mean that they get roughly 24-30 AT rpg rounds if 2 new RPGs were added.
-The new system would give them 16-20 AT rounds and either 8-10 AP rounds or 16-20 AP rounds.
-With new shooters the insurgents get more people to carry the shots, but actually have fewer shots overall so armor isn't as completely screwed as it could be from this change.

Cons
-That might be too many RPGs for one team to have, I mean we only have 32 players.
-There would eventually need to be different ammo modeled.
-It is a re-suggestion (but with a different context for the resuggestion)

Fun and interesting question for discussion

What do you think mortars will do to the current state of insurgency and assuming any of these changes are undertaken, what should change?

I should mention, that I mean for most of these changes to apply to Iraqi Insurgents as I have played as them the most and have studied mostly about this group. Some ideas could apply to other insurgent factions as well.

I feel this would fit in the feedback more, you aren't really suggesting anything.

Did you read the last part of my post?

I make 5 pretty big suggestions and give some possible ways to incorporate them, and also make a quick rationale of why I think they should be there, and also analyze some possible problems from them.

I call this a compliation because I like putting ideas together to build upon them, and I like to cite my sources when I collaborate. Everyone needs a pat on the back sometimes for the work that they do.

Lol IDK but to me it seems like half of the post is like a remake of the old versions. Like taking away the civis medipacks/epipens/CPR. Are we going back to 0.75 xD.
Some of these suggestions are pretty good, but we have to wait for a DEV statement, if hardcoded/doable/needed and so on.

I really like the insurgent cache placement, but I think the collaborator should still be in play because that makes it very unbalanced but everything is else is great!

SharpShooter13971 wrote:I really like the insurgent cache placement

Your right the cache placement is good, but it isnt perfect. Maybe there should be a minimum distance of 100m away from the last cache that got destroyed before another one spawns. probably harcoded i dont know but i have seen 4 caches all spawn next to each other and the BLUFOR team just destroyed them all within a matter of minutes because they had overun our hideout

Maybe what you could do is that the ins have to find kits? kind of like at caches, but at points that can be either placed by a SL or are randomly generated by the map - So getting weapondry would be a challange as it is in real ins conflict.

@ Phatcap indeed, some of those ideas already existed, but I think some of them should change back and other new mechanics could be added. I gave some reasons why I think they should exist above.

@sharpshooter How often do you see collaborators reviving and healing people right now? I don't see it very often at all. I see people tending to give up as there are no tickets and then getting back into the action after a respawn. This would make that the rule rather than the norm, and indeed it could be very destabilizing, but I honestly wonder how much it would change things right now.

@smiddey that's not a bad idea. The idea for placing caches (re-suggestion but with a new context and with a slightly different method than previous suggestions) is there in large part due to some of the problems you mentioned regarding random cache placement.

@calstifer that is a very interesting idea. I don't see that working too well without a lot of work, it would really tie insurgents to the cache even more than now, which isn't always a bad idea. I don't know, but I don't think that guns are exactly rare in these places. Perhaps the larger explosive weapons and heavy weapons that are already on caches or at the main base as pickup kits already reflects this. Perhaps a bit more variation on pickup kits, to where you may grab a pkm that has a molotov or one with an RKG3, or one with a bit more ammunition or something small like that just to randomize things a little bit.

Cache placement seems like a fairly thought out solution to the overlapping cache issue, I think having predesignated deployment areas could keep the possibility of exploitation to a minimum.

I don't like the civi idea, if anything I'd like more way more strict ROE for blufor, I feel this is one of the few gameplay adjustments towards reality that could help insurgents. Seeing a local with a weapon is not uncommon in the areas most insurgent maps are staged in, and there is a lot of clarification needed before engaging anything. As it stands a stryker squad can sit a bit off of a city and rape everyone they see all day long, as much as anyone would want to do this in real life they cant. Just watch any apache flir clips with sound and you can see how many people are involved in the approval of shooting a few hellfires off, even if they clearly have weapons.

If we had AI civilians (not rly a suggestion, just saying) the ROE would be so different, as it stands there are too few civilians and they are soo easily identified.