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after thinking about all this AA-attack heli and heli-hunt discussion i came to the conclusion that it would benefit the teamplay to implement a maximum altitude for helicopters:
1. 1-2 km is not a realistic flight altitude for attack helicopters
2. flying high only works because of the low visual range and is kind of lame and unrealistic.
irl you would spot the chopper long before its directly above you and can shoot you down.
3. havint no limit encourages people to fly high which results in a lack of teamplay and CAS availability, which is the actual role of the attack helis.

I just got shot down again while i was flying at 900m (which is very high ihmo) form right above, the enemy helicopter was at ~1500m and there was no chance to see him before.
thats unrealistic and totally lame cause this way the winner will always be the one who flies higher. it forces the pilots to fly high and then they are not available for CAS and that all results in a very bad gaming experience.
that cannot be desired.

First step to effective precise close air support is establishing air superiority. So regardless of this change helicopter pilots will search and destroy the other teams air arsenal before focusing on close air support, a smart pilot would anyway because what good is your nice and shiny Apache if a Mi-28 is up your *** with its 120 inch cannon?

I don't think this suggestion will increase CAS, it will, if anything, just make ground AA a little more useful.

Also this sounds somewhat hard-coded, seems like the maps roof would be the same for jets and helicopters but I could be wrong.

I just got back from a round of wanda shan where the enemy Havok dived on us from above twice and both times i shot him with the cannanon (ty fizzco for awesome flying once again <3 ) so it just depends on skill imho

I however agree with you that a limit of about 1200 metres should be introuced.

redwater, that was exactly taht round i was talking about, you and youre mate were very high and came down so we had no dea what happened.
thats unrealistic and unfair, cause it does not depend on skill at all.
and reddeath:
........ ....... ..... ....... ... ..... ...... you search for enemy helicopters ONLY cause you know they can dive down on you at every moment. if there was a limit of about 1000m, you surely wouldnt force a heli 1on1 cause you know that you dont have the advantage of being higher and the enemy has exactly the same chances to take YOU down. That would be a risk no skilled pilot would take.

I just DONT UNDERSTAND why everybody doesnt see taht those f*cking Heli 1on1s HAVE TO STOP for the sake of gameplay?!?!?!?!?!

you missunderstood me, they were above us and dived on us, fizz dodged all enemy fire and I shot the havok. Of course luck was a very big factor here aswell.

And yes I do see why it has to stop, even though it more of a selfish reason for me: I hate looking at the sky while my pilot searches for the enemy helo, having the same thing to look at all the time makes me rage

Zoddom wrote:redwater, that was exactly taht round i was talking about, you and youre mate were very high and came down so we had no dea what happened.
thats unrealistic and unfair, cause it does not depend on skill at all.
and reddeath:
........ ....... ..... ....... ... ..... ...... you search for enemy helicopters ONLY cause you know they can dive down on you at every moment. if there was a limit of about 1000m, you surely wouldnt force a heli 1on1 cause you know that you dont have the advantage of being higher and the enemy has exactly the same chances to take YOU down. That would be a risk no skilled pilot would take.

I just DONT UNDERSTAND why everybody doesnt see taht those f*cking Heli 1on1s HAVE TO STOP for the sake of gameplay?!?!?!?!?!

uuuhhh actually I bet it would end up like this:
-Helicopters spawn, warm up, take off, scan the map, find hostile CAS, spam rockets, one or even both die within mins after spawning. Not an improvement eh?
I can't really agree with your idea, because choppers need the limited view to hide. They are already vulnerable to almost everything, hell yes everything (AA, enemy CAS, bloody tanks, scout helicopters, apcs, hand held AA, guys with a darng AR, light ATs o.O, heavy ATs, transport choppers,.....), making the engagements more dangerous, with an improved AA, will completely seal down the CAS future. Noone would man attack helicopters anymore.

"you search for enemy helicopters ONLY cause you know they can dive down on you at every moment"

Yes you search for the enemy CAS only because they are a threat to you, not a threat to your friendly infantry, armor, transport, logistics, FOBs, and team as a whole but just because they can kill you.

I am going to be straight with you if this change went though I promise you verrryyy few people, if any, will change their ways, their first objective will still be to take out the enemy air assets and take air superiority and then rain all hell on objectives.

In reality no half decent military is going to send a $15 Million helicopter to take out a couple infantry if there is a risk of losing it, the first objective is to make sure you can fly safely and do your mission effectively.

Reddeath wrote: In reality no half decent military is going to send a $15 Million helicopter to take out a couple infantry if there is a risk of losing it, the first objective is to make sure you can fly safely and do your mission effectively.

you disarm yourself with this statement.
no military would send out 15 mio$ helis to find and shoot other helis.
Its simply not the role of Attack choppers to take down the enemy ones.

and whats the logic in searching for things which are a threat to you?! thats bu********

uuuhhh actually I bet it would end up like this:
-Helicopters spawn, warm up, take off, scan the map, find hostile CAS, spam rockets, one or even both die within mins after spawning. Not an improvement eh?

you dont seem to understand me... because jsut because of this you WOULDNT search the enemy heli, cause the risk to die is much higher then it is now.
If you want to do the CAS role right, you dont engage the enemy CAS, cause tahts simply not CAS, whats the problem in understanding this fact!?
i get the feeling of speaking with children, seriously.

Zoddom wrote:you dont seem to understand me... because jsut because of this you WOULDNT search the enemy heli, cause the risk to die is much higher then it is now.
If you want to do the CAS role right, you dont engage the enemy CAS, cause tahts simply not CAS, whats the problem in understanding this fact!?
i get the feeling of speaking with children, seriously.

Mate YOU don't get it. The maps aren't big enough, so that a chance is given to perform your task unseen. If you don't take out the enemy air-threats FIRST, they will get you. I understand your thoughts and I would agree if we were talking about ArmA II, or similar, but we are NOT!. This is BF2 engine, means max 4x4 map. Where do you wanna hide on a map like Kashan? A helicopter can scout the area in less than a minute. How do you wanna perform properly, when you know theres a chopper in the area and he WILL get you? Its simply not achievable with the given methods.

Theres a reason why Attack Choppers have Air-to-Air missiles, to blow the enemy CAS (CLOSE AIR SUPPORT=Anti everything, that is threatening you-->Ground-, Air- and Water-targets) to hell.

Searching and killing everything thats threatening you is nothing more than rambo.
If you know that something is a threat to you in a certain area, YOU STAY AWAY from there, thats pure logic.
thats how AA should be used, stationary AT should be used, and every asset and every kit has its own role in supressing a specific enemy type of asset in the battlefield.

How do you wanna perform properly, when you know theres a chopper in the area and he WILL get you? Its simply not achievable with the given methods.

if used right then there ARE methods. you just all dont use them right and think of yourself "yeah im such a uberskilled pilot i just fly at 14248m and rush down at the enemy hell yeah".
IF you know that theres a chopper, stay away and report to your AA units, THATS the way its meant to be played. as it is now, with nearly unlimited altitude people just dont see that they dont do it the way its meant to be. if forced down to max. 1000m (which is enough to hide from AA and other threats!) they would have to communicate with the team and prepare their attack much more.
its just completely unrealistic and lame as it is now. MANY changes have to be done to make the aerial operations more realistic.
If we could have visible ranges >1000m we would. and what would you do with your bada$$ heli then??? if the enemy can see you when youre taking off in your main? would you still engage the enemy CAS? i doubt it. and if you would you would loose. thats sure.
and now dont say "BUT WE DONT HAVE BALBLBALBAL", youre right but since we DONT have, we got to have something representive.

edit:
btw wheres the evidence that the enemy CAS WILL get you with a limited altitude? show me

edit2:

Theres a reason why Attack Choppers have Air-to-Air missiles, to blow the enemy CAS (CLOSE AIR SUPPORT=Anti everything, that is threatening you-->Ground-, Air- and Water-targets) to hell.

that statement is full of mistakes.
1. helis have AA missiles for self defence, thats why they have AIm9 and R60, and not R75ER.
2. CAS means WHAT? are you serious, i dont get it there.
3. you seem to think choppers are badass uber imba powered super cool assets to blow away everything. if thats the case something went somewhere terribly wrong.

its a vicious circle. we get AA in helis to defend ourselves from helis with AA missiles.
but since we have them we use them to attack helis with AA missiles to defend themselves.
something has been missed, thats sure

Zoddom wrote:you disarm yourself with this statement.
no military would send out 15 mio$ helis to find and shoot other helis.
Its simply not the role of Attack choppers to take down the enemy ones.

and whats the logic in searching for things which are a threat to you?! thats bu*******

Unfortunately few players are going to just sit on base waiting for air superiority to grant itself, obviously in real life things are different but air-to-air missiles are on helicopters for a good reason defensive or offensive, what is better for game play, sitting on base for 30 minutes waiting for the other team to lose their helicopter, or taking care of business yourself in the first 5 minutes of the air asset spawn and grant your team the benefit of close air support? Sure in real life no helicopter will be granted permission to take off and rambo shit, but in a GAME, even aiming at reality, very few players will sit in the cockpit of a helicopter on the pad for half an hour doing nothing and wait till someone says "Okay their helicopter is no longer a threat"

What your asking is to cap it so helicopters can only go example of 700 altitude. Ok so now they are vulnerable to AA 100% of the time. Currently you can either be vulnerable and a threat, or be invulnerable and not a threat. Your asking to lock it at vulnerable and a threat. A Helicopter that is BVR is ineffective at CAS and there is no flaw to that.

Another problem is different maps have different view distances so this cap would have to be adjusted accordingly, something that if even possible will be a pain for mappers I'm sure.

Maybe you would just feel better if everyone knew an unwritten rule to not touch any CAS asset because they are only CAS not meant to attack anything except what is lazed.

If you find a way for a helicopter pilot and gunner, whom are grounded, to be of assistance to the team and actually be fun (this is a game remember) then you might have a valid argument for making the game more realistic with this suggestion, is your next suggestion going to be that we all need to train for several years and become officers in the military before we can man a helicopter gun?

Im curious, what are the direct results you expect to happen if this actually happened?

also

thats how AA should be used, stationary AT should be used, and every asset and every kit has its own role in supressing a specific enemy type of asset in the battlefield.

AT weapons are constantly used against infantry in real world armed conflicts, even just to blow a wall down.

Also to add in more lets make a scenario, an attack helicopter is sent out for a CAS call and before they get there they get intel that there is an enemy attack helicopter running parallel to them. Do you think:
A) They will be told to scrub the mission and get out of there. or
B) Take down that helicopter.

I don't think that would be considered defensive.

Zoddom wrote:you disarm yourself with this statement.
no military would send out 15 mio$ helis to find and shoot other helis.
Its simply not the role of Attack choppers to take down the enemy ones.

If that was the case then they wouldn't equip them with AA missles...

I only had to read I got killed and that was lame and I knew that this is a good old fashion case of "Mommy I dieded and it wasn't fair tell the other kids to play by my rules."

Mate calm down, wipe the foam off and sort yourself out.
If I get you right all kind of assets should like perform independently from the hostile one? Like tanks just taking care of infantry and leaving the enemy armor alone? Do YOU think that is realistic in any mater? AA kits are there for self-protection, they are not supposed to go hunt down the air threats, but to defend ground troops from these air-threats. Choppers and jets should get neutralized by, guess what, helicopters and jets.

Zoddom wrote:Searching and killing everything thats threatening you is nothing more than rambo.
If you know that something is a threat to you in a certain area, YOU STAY AWAY from there, thats pure logic.

1)This statement (I get the idea behind it, but you didn't manage to write it down properly) is pure bullshit. Why would you go to war, if theres a possibility that you might get killed. War is risk and you have to risk your assets and personnel, thats their sole purpose.

2) No, doesn't mater "how much better you are than I am", you cannot do your task as Attack Chopper, when you are constantly threaten by AAs and other shit. No way you can hide, or escape. Sometimes you may be lucky, but in 4 out of 5 strafe runs you'll get shot down, which is IMO not fun.

-Definition of CAS: An attack by aircraft on a target which is close to friendly ground forces.
Source-->close air support definition

3)

Zoddom wrote:edit:
btw wheres the evidence that the enemy CAS WILL get you with a limited altitude? show me

Okay let me see...we have a 4x4 km? big map, and 2 aircrafts which can cross it in less than 1 min. How long will it take till they meet? Taking a few facts in consideration (like engagement zones, clear airspace), they will meet as soon as they get their first Call-in. Cmon man, think about it before writing pure nonsense. Not every player would act as you.

4)

Zoddom wrote:1. helis have AA missiles for self defence, thats why they have AIm9 and R60, and not R75ER.

Oh hang on explain me what self defense means? Ignoring a contact when you spot him?

5)

Zoddom wrote:2. CAS means WHAT? are you serious, i dont get it there.

Stated above and get some informations before starting to argue about a topic you have no knowledge about.

6)

Zoddom wrote:3. you seem to think choppers are badass uber imba powered super cool assets to blow away everything. if thats the case something went somewhere terribly wrong.

Should we really understand anything from that sentence? No, choppers aren't THE assets, but they are the by far most valuable we have, thats why we shouldn't make their pilots life any harder. Just think back, no CAS lasts longer than 15 mins.

Happy reading and this time think before writing "me 12 years kidzor writxing leetzor tezt abut kewl airaset".

Regards -Brain

1 attack heli on each side will fix the problem, 2 of them makes the CAS sq worry about the other team's CAS and stays high up untill they shoot down the 2nd chopper too but for that time the 1st spawns and here they go again.

I do find AA emplacements to be rather useless against skilled pilots due to the altitude they can reach.

Asymmetrical balance is the only solution if you don't want air asset to be looking for their enemy counterparts.

Seriously, why would you limit the pilots even more, they already have the hardest job there is in this game.
If anything they need to get it easier to stay alive.

Think about it, all the threats they have, which they wouldn't or nearly have in real life. The engagement range is the view distance, meaning everything absolutely everything is able to take it down with not too much trouble.

this discussion wont have an end untill there are the changes done that are necessary. One solution would be to reduce the atk heli amount to 1 per team, another could be to remove AA missiles from them, or to reduce the maximum altitude. imo, this s the best compromise we can have. you can keep your AA missiles and your two choppers, but you would stop to engage the eney CAS directly, since you wont have any advantage of height anymore.
phatcap, tell me where that risk is when you can dive on the enemy heli from 1000m above it so he wont know what happen? do you actually think this is fun? searching for the enemy helo at 1000m only to get killed by it cause hes another 1000m higher then you? are you serious? you remind me of some people i know who say bf2 was better with insta-proning, and thats not simply not true, they are only pissed of cause now in 1.5 they wont have an advantage with insta proning anymore. its a similar problem here.
just accept that the way it is now is not the way its meant to be, I myself am even sure that the DEVs will change the situation anyway, just want to be sure that they know that its important to some players to happen certainly and fast.
and stop contradicting yourself with posted definitions, thats rediculous. A chopper hunting another one is not CAS and wont ever be and you wont ever see this happen.

to be precise:
I suggest a maximum flight altitude of 900-1000m for Helicopters. Im sure this is possible if you look at vanilla and the 800m limit for jets. An altitude of 900-1000m will still be enough to hide from AA and other ground threats, since the area you can be seen from is minimal (had a drawing somewhere, try to find it). It doesnt need to be adjusted for every visual range because we dont have helicopters on maps with less than 500m vis range, which is 1000m in diameter which is exactly the the area a helicopter can operate in, so you still wont be able to dive on the enemy CAS unseen.


I hope at least the other guys got the message
sincerely


edit:
just read your comment alex:
i was of your opinion some time ago. but asymmetrical assets have one disadvantage:
one team has a heli and a fighter, the other one a bomber and a fighter, if i understood you right.
so the team with bomber would have the problem that the enemy fighter is a serious threat to their CAS, and the enemy Heli is not that much threatened by their own fighter, cause its harder to find and shoot down a heli than a jet, if im right.
now, i think the best would be to limit the Heli count per team to one and add a fighter jet for each side (depends on the map), so the job to bring down the enemy air threats would be the fighters role, which would be more realistic and easier for the heli pilots imo.
and wheres the evidence that its harder for heli pilots with a limited altitude? i would say its easier cause you wont have to worry about the enemy CAS diving down on you, and as the image above shows, itws still able to hide from ground forces.

Can lock this thread really, because limiting the altitude is just a stupid idea unrealistic and CAS for choppers is not that big of a deal. Not big enough to change the altitude for it anyway.

I am sorry to say, the best I have ever seen it in is in CA and thats not really possible in PR.

Flying will always be unrealistic in PR until view gets increased, engagement ranges get implemented, and targeting systems are sorted.

I just cannot see how limiting altitude will help. Its very annoying that you get hit from above, thats why you hit
them first.
Edit: To add to this, its not impossible to kill someone who dives on you nor is it necessary to go higher, but what are you doing out there if there is enemy heli threat anyway like you say? If you know the enemy heli is out, the last thing you do is go and hover 800m to kill tanks, either you hunt the enemy, or stay back on the pad until its down, whatever you feel you can achieve best.

If the altitude is limited, same is going to happen but lower, except this time you are exposed to everything on the map.

AA has a 1200m range at least btw.

Consider attack angle also, its going to be hilarious for any experienced land crewman if the altitude was limited.

Think of altitude as a metaphor for larger map area, more view distance and land concealment at the moment anyway.

Going off the logic on whoever it was that mentioned that this limitation would force the choppers to stay at main untill the other sides chopper went down *read last night too lazy find and quote it now* then youd have both sides choppers sitting at main all game because neither side has gone down.