Project Reality Forums

Playing on the 128 server today about 5 minutes into playing one of my fellow squad members said . . .

" Fire team leader what are our orders ? "

It got me thinking about how un coordinated 12 man squads Really are. we couldnt even get to geather to leave the spawn area . . one person would spawn we would wait then another person would hold us up. thinking about it 6 man squads are actualy fairly efficient.

Later on when 128 player game play takes hold and all the kinks get rolled out obviousaly there needs to be some major changes. " as the Devs are well aware of "

with this in mind i put togeather a little demonstration on how the Team hirearchy should be set up. From Commander to Fire team leader to Squad leader to Squad members.
It actualy works out pretty well that if squads get put into groups of 13

ONE FL (Fire team leader ) TWO (Squad leaders ) TEN ( Squad Members) PER Fire team

The Fire team leader has direct communication with the Commander much like normal Squad leader does. from what the Fire team leader determines the plan of action is he Relays down to the Two Squad leaders and from there the squad leaders communicate within the Squads. this will keep squads the normal size of 6 people not having to edit kit configurations and such. plus there is a maximum amount of medics on the field at one given time.

i am not going to Scan and show you my little draw out but basicaly what it comes down to is.

All depending upon what is needed for gameplay due to Small scale squad ratios and needs less or more Fire teams may be needed. CAS / ARMOR / MORTERS / TRANS / FOB-Logistics / SNIPER squads / ETC

There is ONE commander 5-6 Fire team leaders (FLs ,FTLs) 10-12 Squad leaders with 5-6 members in each squad with a total amount of 40-60 usable spots for Squad members if full amount of Fire teams is inserted. ALSO to keep room for the extra commander player incase Nobody chooses to be commander at a given time.

Team Hierarchy Layout ( Crude ) but Basic idea


There will be an issue with identification so New colors will need to be used
( GREEN / ORANGE would indicate Squad 6 Squad leaders section 1 or 2 Green or orange )


This IS a discussion On how Fire teams will work in the future due to the HUGE amounts of players in Individual squads the team work needs to be split within the large amounts players per team/Squad. in a single squad if there is 12 players including a squad leader that means the squad leader needs to keep control of 11 players who may be off doing their own thing / lagging behind / Anything its a difficult thing to do especialy since this is only a game and there is no REAL rules and operational procedures in place for this amount of coordination.

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PS

Hitman.2.5 wrote:I think that the sqaud leader should come before the Fire team leader because in a company you have platoons in a platoon you have 3-4 Squads and in a squad you have 2 fire teams.

So its a great idea, u just need to change the leaders around

I didnt Realise how Actual Military squads are set up so Swtich around Squad leader with Fire team leaders . . . . then it should be more accurate.
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Of course all this wont be possible if the BF2 engine doesnt allow but if we could get 128 players for AMRA 2 or PR2 this could be a good setup foundation.

What do you think

I think that the sqaud leader should come before the Fire team leader because in a company you have platoons in a platoon you have 3-4 Squads and in a squad you have 2 fire teams.

So its a great idea, like u said, just need to change the leaders around

Considering majority of PR uses combined arms maps you haven't taken into account Logistics elements/Aviation/Armor/Recon at all. At the end if the day you're looking at at least 16 infantry with the rest being support or direct combat units.

The ideal size is keeping fireteams specifically to the same squad having 4/4/1 with each group of 4 having one leader and the 1 being overall command.

Hitman.2.5 wrote:I think that the sqaud leader should come before the Fire team leader because in a company you have platoons in a platoon you have 3-4 Squads and in a squad you have 2 fire teams.

So its a great idea, u just need to change the leaders around

Thanks I actualy had no idea im just going off of the situation at the moment .. . . but atleast you get the basic JIST of the Concept.

AND . . .. . Yes i said that there should be more "Squads" to make Room for smaller squads suchas CAS TRANS TANKS ETC

That's actually pretty good and very interesting, love to have a step forward for the future 128 players.

Only works if it's codeable.

I guess I would probably separate a squad (12-men teams) into this...

Officer's Fire Team: Officer, Medic, Grenadier, Rifleman
Fire Support Fire Team: Rifleman (FT Leader), Rifleman, Rifleman, Automatic Rifleman. Swap "Rifleman" kit to any special limited kit (such as AT, AA or Marksman)
Assault Fire Team (or flanking Fire Team, depending on situation): Rifleman (FT Leader), Rifleman Specialist, Rifleman, Rifleman.

I think that would be a pretty self-sufficient unit, capable of covering an entire attack area.

Picture this: Al Basrah - cache at south side of the city. 1 Squad (along with APCs) attack from S. Another one from West. Another one from East. Perhaps a fourth, intercepting squad (prevents enemy reinforcements). Done, you got it.


Of course, organizing squads this way would be SUCH a headache...


P.S. Grenadier is on Officer's FT so he knows the exact range. And the Officer's FT might be used as a support assault or flank squad.


PP.S. I guess this might be a problem because there is somewhat a lack of good SLs that can take charge of a 6-man squad (I have most of the time issues with at least a straggler). What I think makes most sense is that 1 Leader should have under his wings 3 other people, and THAT'S IT. The Squad Leader shouldn't have to worry much about his FT members, but rather his other FT leaders.


I personally had a GREAT experience with 8-man squads... I think that's pretty much the perfect size. Big enough to defend a flag in Yamalia against APCs and infantry, and small enough to be controled without a 2ic.

Mmh, some people might hate to not be able to have their favorite kit and being stuck with Rifleman

Pvt.LHeureux wrote:Mmh, some people might hate to not be able to have their favorite kit and being stuck with Rifleman

So? This isn't a Game, they should know they cant do that anyway!

I actually really like this idea, but its a much better idea to keep it simple, yet effective, just like PR has always been.

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Your squads are the size of 12 (or is it 10? Doesnt matter, this works for everything)

The only thing which changes from our normal PR experience, is that an extra kit is added - Fire Team Leader. Probably 90% the same as the Officer kit, maybe one or two changes.

Your squad leader kit (officer currently) stays the same as the officer kit.

The squad can either act as a single squad (what we currently have, except in future not a full squad) or as two fireteams (squad should be full preferably)

IMO, PR should focus more on Mumble in these situations. Add in an extra Fireteam channels (1-9) and then also the Squad leader channel, may take a new version of mumble for this though, as we will require the same person to be in like 2 channels.
"Button X talks to the Squad Leaders, button Y speaks directly to your Fireteam leaders, button Z talks to the entire team (local ofc)"

If you dont use Mumble, Tough! Only the best servers use Mumble, but all of them should, its really the way forward.

Another good option to this idea, is that you can have the same as the above, in all logistical roles too.

E.g You have your Squad Leader (could be a spotter) and then you have 2 fire team leaders (chopper pilots), or the squad can play out just like current PR.

Inside this you could even have an airborne assault squad, in which your Spotter finds a position of attack, calls in the 2 Fireteam leaders, who drop onto the target, unload the 2 Fire Teams, bug out and then return when the squad needs to Evac.

Same goes for tank warfare, can have your tank commander and his tank, then 2 "fireteams" (2 other tanks), thats a 9 man squad, hell you can even have another fully crewed tank in there, or if your team goes for the regular 2 man tank setup, you could probably use all of the tank assets to a single squad, leaving everything else dedicated to Infantry and Air.

And before you go spouting off that the Squad Leaders already get a headache because of the SL channel, Ingame chat and normal mumble, nut up or shut up. This will really drag out the great squad leaders from the good one. And when there is too much speak, just ask for Silence on Mumble, Squad Leaders shouldn't be chatting in there anyway, thats what regular mumble is for.

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TL;DR, go back and read it

Just thinking about the possibilities of 128 man servers, makes you think how kickass it will be when it finally comes around.

first off let me explain what a fire team is. a fire team consists of 2 people. neither have any power over the other. they simply exist so that everyone operates in pairs and has someone to watch their back. they are fire team partners. 2 people. 3 if there are an odd number of people in the Section.

then comes a section or "squad". consists of 8 -12 people.

sorry but i just want people to get the terms right.

now back on topic, i like your idea. although the FT leader position is out of place. for example squad 1 and 2 form one section, then Section IC which in your diagram is FT leader, should be squadleader of squad 1. Section 2IC would be SL of sq2

a fireteam leader does not exist in any definition.

mmm Actually a Fireteam can go up to 4. And a Squad and be from 4-12.

I think it all matters from what country and thus army you are from.

Even within the same country you got differences. I hear Marines use a different squad size and lay-out than US-Army. You see someone from Canada who is saying a fireteam is only with 2 men and no fireteam leader. Whilst the US uses fireteams with leaders and go up to 4.

So we should not try to make this realistic, we should try and make this usable for PR. The goal (IMO) should be to get a more streamlined communication flow. With 6 people on VOIP it can be cluttering. Imagine when theres 2 more.

Fire team leaders do exist, it just depends on which military you ask. Additionally when there are any two military members there's always a senior one. That said, it would make sense to me if each squad was 3 four man fire teams with 1 squad leader. To get even more into it you would have each fire team as a grenadier, saw gunner, rifleman, officer/team leader kit, though I suspect people would complain about so much firepower in a four man team.

I don't really think these breakdowns are possible though as some one mentioned for anything to happen it must be code able.

WelshManDan wrote:So? This isn't a Game, they should know they cant do that anyway!

Oh! Fellow Taff. This is a game, and I will have my favorite kit, unless told otherwise

Anyway.

I'm sure that the commander would be able to manage the squads on his own? I've always found the commander role quite slow, so having twice as many people (but not twice as many squads) would spice things up a little. People need time to adjust to commanding larger squads first.

My version was a bit different.

I was seeding the server when Soppa tried increasing the squad number (>9), it crashed.
So we're stuck with 9 units. How about increasing the number of people in those units (squads) to, say up to 40 people, turning them into platoons?
We change the term SQUAD into PLATOON. We could have 2 inf platoons, armor platoon, air platoon (it's not called platoon, but you get the idea)...
Platoon can have 4 squads (4-10 guys), and one guy is leading them - an OFFICER. This true officer (Lieutenant or something) would have a lighter kit then now.
3-4 SERGEANT kits could be requested per platoon, and they will look the same as the officer kit now.

I don't know if it's possible to limit VOIP only to officers and squad leaders... or do you have to do it through mumble...


Over all, my idea is to end up with no more than 5 groups/units, so if another officer joins the server, he can make his own platoon. The problem with 9 squads on 128p server is that it is difficult to get good players to lead squads. All the squad slots are taken in the first minute of the round.

id say 3-4 "PLATOONS" in a so called 20 men group. With all that stuff. Having one Platoon leader, this will not only make the COs job easier cause he has only 3 main groups etc. But it also creates a bigger atmosphere of a team imo.



Try it.

Maybe one squad on the side for CAS and choppers.

4 Squads

3 squads of 20 men

1 squad of 3

1 CO

= 64?

The idea here, is not to have armor specific platoons, but sorta all round fighting units that can solve alot of problems with the tools the platoon has, trucks hummers tanks, apcs and alot of infantry.

Then the CO could work on what to attack and where to position the units(Platoons) in regards to flags or the enemy.

KingKong.CCCP wrote: I don't know if it's possible to limit VOIP only to officers and squad leaders... or do you have to do it through mumble...

I wanted to ask this yesterday after testing the server.

What is codeable or not from the in-game VOIP?
Is it possible to create sub-channels (like KingKong exemplified) and deactivate in-game VOIP to anyone that is not a SL/CO? Basically just deactivating in-game VOIP to members that are not first in squad, since officers pretty much remain static at the top. Mumble doesn't even need to be incorporated, as long it is obligatory to use.

It is way more easy to present hierarchy suggestions when working around the Comms first. Also, it SHOULD be the priority theme in this discussion.

Can a DEV please shed a light on this subject?

Can't do anything with BF2 VOIP besides turning it on or off.

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Can't do anything with BF2 VOIP besides turning it on or off.

Got it. So we have to suck up with what we have.

The ideal solution here is to make it simple overpass the limit number of squads (I read somewhere it was possible) and 8 members being the max per each.

I suppose DEVs, Tema and Soppa will be testing this once they care of the lag and other server issues.

Better need mumble for that. Can you imagine the mess that it will make in VOIP?!