Project Reality Forums

Hey guys,

Need advice on an upgrade again.

Posted this topic a year ago contemplating upgrading my PC then but decided on sticking with what I had and only getting a new HDD instead: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f329-h ... eeded.html

Right now I'm working with very large .max scenes and will be soon working with very large .psd files etc and saving 143mb .max scene (may not sound that large but it is) is taking around 30secs to a min to save with a normal SATA HDD, I'm actually typing up this post in the period while I'm waiting for my scene to save...

I'm also not that much of a big game player these days with the most demanding games I play are PR:BF2 and ARMA2 and I can run them fine with my current setup so this upgrade is really aimed at modelling, mapping, lightmapping, photoshop and generally high intensity modding work.

So I'm mainly thinking that I really need to be looking into some SSDs but don't know that much about them but what I do know that my current motherboard can't really use one so I'm really looking at a full upgrade pretty much...


My Current System Specs:
Motherboard: ASUS P5W DH Deluxe Digital Home
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83GHz 1333FSB 12MB L2 Cache OEM Processor (4 CPUs)
Memory: Corsair 6GB (3 x 2GB sticks) DDR2 800MHz/PC2-6400 XMS2 Memory Kit CL5 1.9V TWIN2X4096-6400C5 G
Hard Drives: 2x Seagate ST31500341AS 1.5TB Hard Drive SATAII 7200rpm 32MB Cache - OEM + Western Digital WD5000AAKS 500GB SATAII 7200RPM 16MB Cache - OEM Caviar Blue
Video Card: NVIDIA BFG GeForce GTX 260 OCE 590 896MB
Sound Card: Creative X-Fi Titanium SoundBlaster 7.1 Soundcard - PCI-Express
PSU: Coolermaster eXtreme Power 650W PSU - ATX 12V V2.01 120mm Fan 20+4pin


Since I'm upgrading the motherboard I'm really looking at getting a really good one with the maximum amount of future proofing on it without being ridiculously expensive and not crammed with stuff that no one is ever going to use.

At the same time I want to upgrade as few components as possible with only upgrading the ones which are really going to improve my work flow etc so I would probaly be a little reluctant to upgrade my GFX card as that's not going to improve anything that much, nor my sound card etc and would prefer not to upgade my CPU at this point either as my current one is pretty good, although if it meant better future proofing I would be tempted to look into a new CPU.

I'm also looking to order everything off Ebuyer.com as I normally do unless there is something that I can't get from there which is really worth getting so links to products from ebuyer would be much appreciated if possible

Again not looking to spend as little money as possible, but at the same time would be willing to splash out a little more if its really worth it.


Cheers!


===================================


What I'm currently looking at getting:

Mobo: Asus P8P67 EVO R3 P67 Socket 1155 8 Channel HD Audio ATX Motherboard, Alt Link: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. - Motherboards- ASUS P8P67 PRO (REV 3.1)
CPU: Intel Core i7 2600k 3.4GHz Socket 1155 8MB Cache Retail Boxed Processor
CPU Fan: Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro rev 2 Socket 775, 1156, 1155, 1366, AM2, AM3 Heatpipe CPU Cooler
RAM: Corsair CMX8GX3M2A2000C9 DDR3 XMS3 8GB Desktop Memory, Alt Link: XMS3 ? 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 Memory Kit (CMX8GX3M2A2000C9)
SSD: Corsair 120GB Force GT SSD - 2.5" SATA-III 6Gb/s - Read 555MB/s Write 515MB/s, Alt Link: Force Series? GT 120GB SATA 3 6Gb/s Solid-State Hard Drive - Force Series GT - SSD
Windows 7 Pro: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional - Complete package.. | Ebuyer.com

Total: ?818.53

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote: So I'm mainly thinking that I really need to be looking into some SSDs but don't know that much about them but what I do know that my current motherboard can't really use one so I'm really looking at a full upgrade pretty much...

Why your motherboard can't use SSD's?
Your board seems to have a lot of SATA connectors.


I recommend Intel 320 Series SSD's. Not the fastest on benchmarks, but pretty much reliable.

Edit:

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/261745

As per the last topic: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f329-h ... eeded.html

While SATA2 can support SSDs, it can only use a fraction of the HDDs possible speed, so you might as well be getting a normal HDD instead of spending heaps on money on something that wont be much faster in a SATA2 port.

I have an MSI gd65, and its great, its got an abundance of USB3 ports, 2 esata ports, 4 Sata6gb/s ports, 4 3gb/s ports, 2 x16 PCIe 2 slots(run on 8x with 2 gpus, not that this causes any difference at all..)

Yes you are right in the way that a normal HDD and an SSD on a 3gb/s port will have very very similar performance.

However I would not doubt the power of the HDD, put two of them in raid 0 and it can be as fast as an SSD (or so minimal it doesn't matter), this is also a lot cheaper and gives you more money to spend on a good CPU (i.e the 2600k) with a good cooler on it (i.e Noctua, and whichever noctua will fit in your case...).


The problem with upgrading your motherboard but not upgrading your cpu is that the motherboard upgrade would be not worth the money.... This is because they generally don't make back-compatible motherboards (well Intel don't), so you would be going back to old tech, which isn't always cheaper.


So my recommendations would be:

MSI P67A-gd65 Mobo (about ?130)
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/261147
i6-2600k processor (?240)
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/252535

Then backup your HDDS, wipe them, and put them in Raid 0 (the two Seagates) and have the caviar blue as a backup storage?

That processor is a beast, easily OC'able to 4.2ghz, with 8 threads, meaning your work load should increase considerably from the Q9550 you have at the moment (I upgraded to this from a q6600, and well, its a different world now ). However if the price scares you too much, the i5-2500k is also a good option for a bit less, however it misses out on the 8 threads, cut down to 4. The 8 threads aren't useful for gaming, but become very useful when rendering etc.. (as it can do 8 blocks at once, rather than 4).


To conclude:
SSD's will increase your performance, however a faster processor will increase it by more... The HDD's you have are not slow, and I believe they are not your bottleneck.

cheers, ye I considered RAID before and partly the reason for getting the two identical HDDs but what really puts me off about RAID is that its very unstable and recovery of a broken HDD isn't really possible in most cases and while I do backup my work quite a lot, that really wouldn't be an option other than for running stuff like programs off them that didn't need to be backed up.

and ye I quickly came to the conclusion after making the above post that if I was upgrading my mobo I really needed to upgrade my CPU. Was hoping that the ports hadn't and wouldn't change much but should have known better

its funny you should mention that CPU as that is the one I have been looking at and the one Dr Rank also got and I will most likley get as its a really good price for what your getting. Thinking about getting this cooling fan for it: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/176157

As for the mobo thou I'm looking at this one currently as it seems to have pretty much everything I need, although if you spot anything missing on it that I might need etc please let me know!: Asus P8P67 EVO R3 P67 Socket 1155 8 Channel HD Audio.. | Ebuyer.com

also not sure I agree with you that my CPU is my current bottleneck as my CPU is probably the best bit about my current system tbh, dose really well under intense rendering etc but ye, if I'm upgrading my mobo and CPU, I need to be looking at the top of the range unless I plan on splashing out more money in the not to distant future

'[R-DEV wrote: While SATA2 can support SSDs, it can only use a fraction of the HDDs possible speed, so you might as well be getting a normal HDD instead of spending heaps on money on something that wont be much faster in a SATA2 port.

Uh? Most SSD's are SATA2 anyway and will not be limited in performance at all.

Even if you connect a SSD to a SATA1 port, it will be more than twice as fast as a normal HDD.

Even if the bandwidth would be capped: Nothing beats 0.1ms latency!
Believe me, your applications will greatly benefit, even on your current system!

I'm going to need a few other people to confirm that before I believe that since I have Pedz and a topic from a year ago saying totally the opposite...



Anyways here's what I'm thinking so far.

Mobo: Asus P8P67 EVO R3 P67 Socket 1155 8 Channel HD Audio ATX Motherboard, Alt Link: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. - Motherboards- ASUS P8P67 PRO (REV 3.1)
CPU: Intel Core i7 2600k 3.4GHz Socket 1155 8MB Cache Retail Boxed Processor
CPU Fan: Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro rev 2 Socket 775, 1156, 1155, 1366, AM2, AM3 Heatpipe CPU Cooler
RAM: Corsair CMX8GX3M2A2000C9 DDR3 XMS3 8GB Desktop Memory, Alt Link: XMS3 ? 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 Memory Kit (CMX8GX3M2A2000C9)
SSD: OCZ 120GB Agility 3 SSD - SATA-III - Read 525MB/s Write 500MB/s 50,000 IOPS, Alt Link: http://www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-agilit ... 5-ssd.html

And also thinking of getting Win7 Pro Full from here although wondering if the deal is too good to be true? Microsoft Windows 7 Pro DVD 32bit/64bit


Dose that all sound good and will my old PSU, GFX card, sound card etc all be fine with that? I don't see any reason why not myself, although can't find any power requirements for the mobo etc so not sure if my 650W PSU will be enough but think it will but would like someone with better knowledge to check

Cheers!

The PSU should should be fine, till you wont create SLi.

'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino;1618658']cheers, ye I considered RAID before and partly the reason for getting the two identical HDDs but what really puts me off about RAID is that its very unstable and recovery of a broken HDD isn't really possible in most cases and while I do backup my work quite a lot, that really wouldn't be an option other than for running stuff like programs off them that didn't need to be backed up.



its funny you should mention that CPU as that is the one I have been looking at and the one Dr Rank also got and I will most likley get as its a really good price for what your getting. Thinking about getting this cooling fan for it: Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro rev 2 Socket 775, 1156.. | Ebuyer.com

As for the mobo thou I'm looking at this one currently as it seems to have pretty much everything I need, although if you spot anything missing on it that I might need etc please let me know!: Asus P8P67 EVO R3 P67 Socket 1155 8 Channel HD Audio.. | Ebuyer.com

also not sure I agree with you that my CPU is my current bottleneck as my CPU is probably the best bit about my current system tbh, dose really well under intense rendering etc but ye, if I'm upgrading my mobo and CPU, I need to be looking at the top of the range unless I plan on splashing out more money in the not to distant future

Motherboard is good to go, i see no real difference between the two other than make and price of course .



And RAID isnt as insecure or unreliable as you think.. It is twice as unreliable as a normal setup, mainly because if you dont know, it works by splitting data into two parts, and putting one half on each. This means that if one drive dies, you loose all the data. The other end of the stick (without RAID) means that if one drive dies, you loose the data on that drive.

Also you do not require two HDDs of exact same make model size etc.... It will take the smallest size and use that as its size. e.g if you hooked a 500gb and 1tb drive in Raid 0, you'd get 1tb of storage (as it would only take 500gb of the 1tb drive)

I am currently running raid and my pc before did it for 4 years , however with everything its probability, i may have been lucky ^^.

You can put SSD's into raid 0 too for ultimate performance , less failure and insane speeds, but very expensive .

And yes the PSU and everything should be fine with your chosen parts.


I also dont know what terror means by SATA 1 and 2? The only SATA's I know of are of the 3gb/s variety and the 6gb/s variety (remember these are gigaBITS per second, so in MB, its 375MB/s and 750MB/s theoretical max).
With some SSDs claiming read speeds of 500MB plus, I dont think itd take advantage of the SSD, also HDD's are pretty damn fast now ;P, mine are managing 250MB reads.(and they cost me ?80 for 1TB )


EDIT: just found this to clarify (from my normal PC supplier )
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prod ... 0a2k5.html

Shows slower speeds on Sata 3gb/s

Pedz wrote:And RAID isnt as insecure or unreliable as you think.. It is twice as unreliable as a normal setup, mainly because if you dont know, it works by splitting data into two parts, and putting one half on each. This means that if one drive dies, you loose all the data. The other end of the stick (without RAID) means that if one drive dies, you loose the data on that drive.

Ye, the thing is its much less than 1/2 as unreliable if you also take into account that even if a normal HDD dies without RAID, you can still recover the data on it but in RIAD0, with only 1/2 the data available you can't recover it.

I know its a low risk, but that risk is too large for me when I can't risk my work being lost.

Pedz wrote:Also you do not require two HDDs of exact same make model size etc.... It will take the smallest size and use that as its size. e.g if you hooked a 500gb and 1tb drive in Raid 0, you'd get 1tb of storage (as it would only take 500gb of the 1tb drive)

Ye, but from what I understand it runs much better when you have two identical HDDs.

Pedz wrote:I also dont know what terror means by SATA 1 and 2? The only SATA's I know of are of the 3gb/s variety and the 6gb/s variety (remember these are gigaBITS per second, so in MB, its 375MB/s and 750MB/s theoretical max).
With some SSDs claiming read speeds of 500MB plus, I dont think itd take advantage of the SSD, also HDD's are pretty damn fast now ;P, mine are managing 250MB reads.


EDIT: just found this to clarify (from my normal PC supplier )
Intel 510 Series inchElmcrestinch 250GB 2.5inch SATA-3 Solid State Hard Drive

Shows slower speeds on Sata 3gb/s

SATA 2 = SATA 3gb/s and SATA 3 = SATA 6gb/s, not sure what SATA 1 is off the top of my head in terms of speed but its irrelevant

But ye, showing 1/2 the speed for that SSD on SATA2 compared with SATA3, not sure how that compares with a normal HDDs read/write times on SATA2/3?

No, HDD's with 10000 rpms are only one who can keep up to SSD. If you have SSD with SATA 6 GB/s its IS insane speed if you compare to HDD. So, if you Rhino want speed you want use SSD. If I were building my new build I would buy SSD SATA 6 GB/s about 120 GB of space for OS and few games and some kind HDD or two of them for storage. But its me.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote: SATA 2 = SATA 3gb/s and SATA 3 = SATA 6gb/s, not sure what SATA 1 is off the top of my head in terms of speed but its irrelevant

But ye, showing 1/2 the speed for that SSD on SATA2 compared with SATA3, not sure how that compares with a normal HDDs read/write times on SATA2/3?

Serial ATA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So:

SATA1 = 150MB/s
SATA2 = 300MB/s
SATA3 = 500MB/s

So let's see what a normal SSD have:

Intel 160GB 320 Series SSD - 2.5" SATA-II - Read.. | Ebuyer.com

Intel 160GB 320 Series SSD - 2.5" SATA-II - Read 270MB/s Write 165MB/s - Retail - 5 Year Warranty

As you can see, even SATA2 is not a bottleneck for this drive.

Now let this compare to a very expensive server HDD with 15000 rpm (!) (ST3300557SS):

Maximum read speed: 170MB/s.

Comparison to your current drive:
Seagate ST31500341AS

Minimum read speed: 64 MB/s
Maximum read speed: 131 MB/s
(average: 101 MB/s)

Even a (insecure) HDD RAID won't be as fast as a single SSD.
Additionally, a RAID have even a slightly bigger latency than a single drive!

But the most important thing on a SSD is, that there is almost no delay when you access a file. This brings the biggest boost while working with a lot of files at the same time.

For example: when I bought my 80GB SATA2 (!) SSD my map load times in the preditor were reduced by 50%.

If others really say the opposite, I must say that this is total BS and that they don't know what they are talking about.
Believe a IT service technician and PC builder with 20 years experience.

You are going to buy a SSD anyway. So just try this drive on your current hardware and see how fast your computer really can be. It will be a difference like day and night.

But watch out with your selected SSD. It might be a fail drive:

Corsair Force Series 3 SSD Issue Resolution: Drive Return Procedure - The Corsair Support Forums

(there is a huge problem with SSD drives from various manufacturers using the Sandforce SF-2200 controller!)

Cheers for the info on the Force 3, I was debating between that one and the very simliar OCZ 120GB Agility 3 SSD - SATA-III - Read 525MB/s Write 500MB/s 50,000 IOPS drive (say 50k IOPS but on theOCZ site it says max of 85k, 50k is just the avg) which I think I will get now instead

TeRR0R wrote:Intel 160GB 320 Series SSD - 2.5" SATA-II - Read.. | Ebuyer.com

As you can see, even SATA2 is not a bottleneck for this drive.

That SSD drive isn't limited by it no but I'm looking at SSDs with much faster read/write times, that Intel one looks very slow and expensive to me compared to the OCZ one above.

TeRR0R wrote:You are going to buy a SSD anyway. So just try this drive on your current hardware and see how fast your computer really can be. It will be a difference like day and night

Could possibly do that ye to see how it goes and if it works out it would be the much cheaper option in the short run but I'm still not going to get a SSD made for SATA2 as I like to keep all my hardware going for as long as possible.

Bumpy, would like some more thoughts on the hardware I'm thinking of and if anyone else thinks I should just get an SSD for my current system?

'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino;1618712']Anyways here's what I'm thinking so far.

Mobo: Asus P8P67 EVO R3 P67 Socket 1155 8 Channel HD Audio ATX Motherboard, Alt Link: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. - Motherboards- ASUS P8P67 PRO (REV 3.1)
CPU: Intel Core i7 2600k 3.4GHz Socket 1155 8MB Cache Retail Boxed Processor
CPU Fan: Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro rev 2 Socket 775, 1156, 1155, 1366, AM2, AM3 Heatpipe CPU Cooler
RAM: Corsair CMX8GX3M2A2000C9 DDR3 XMS3 8GB Desktop Memory, Alt Link: XMS3 ? 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 Memory Kit (CMX8GX3M2A2000C9)
SSD: OCZ 120GB Agility 3 SSD - SATA-III - Read 525MB/s Write 500MB/s 50,000 IOPS, Alt Link: OCZ Agility 3 SATA III 2.5" SSD - OCZ

And also thinking of getting Win7 Pro Full from here although wondering if the deal is too good to be true? Microsoft Windows 7 Pro DVD 32bit/64bit


Dose that all sound good and will my old PSU, GFX card, sound card etc all be fine with that? I don't see any reason why not myself, although can't find any power requirements for the mobo etc so not sure if my 650W PSU will be enough but think it will but would like someone with better knowledge to check

Cheers!

Well, for such awesome system you could buy the Corsair H70, Its awesome. And only bottleneck what stays (just guessing) is GPU - 260? In market there is new same class GPU's - GeForce 560 and 560 Ti. Than your system will be complete.

Ye I looked at that CPU cooler but seems way to expensive to me and its not like my CPU is going to fry with a cheaper one, will just be a bit louder.

And ye my GFX card is even now the worst part of my system and the oldest part too but like I said, all the games I play I can run totally fine with my current system (including ARMA2) and I can upgrade my GFX card at any point in the future with relative ease so if my current one dose become a problem, it wont be a problem to upgrade it then and prices on GFX cards will have come down + new ones will be out by that time
That's providing a new GFX card interface doesn't come out between now and then, anyone know if one is planned or not?

Just to add the I7 26000k can easy to 4ghz on air and 4.5ghz with the H70. If your doing modeling and mapping then overclocking is a option. Also you talk of a SSD the Intel last alot longer before they start to slow down the OCZ are faster but only for 3 months then they slow right down and need a reformat. The intel manages the memory and files alot better and stay fast for longer.

Have a look at the overclockers.co.uk forum and you will see alot of info on the OCZ and how its slows down very quickly in a short time. Cheap and fast but not for long.

esp this thread.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showth ... t=18291463

I use a Intel 80gb SSD and its still as fast as the day i bought it 16 months ago.

Corsair SSD's are good as well. But cost of it high as well... Check prices, if you can go for Intel or Corsair. But about H70 - serious business

I have to say a nocuta air cooler is better than the coverted H70 on many heat tests, it is quite large, but it performs well, and I believe it is cheaper at ?65. Im racking the smaller C14, but the D14 is a beast at cooling , also the fans are ultra-quiet.

Also a new set of graphics cards are set for 3rd quater this year (probably release in 4th). These will be upto 4x faster than current (although fps etc wont be 4x). Theyre making a smaller die size this run, which may fail again, as it did the last time they shrinked .

Yeah Pedz, if you aiming for silence than noctua is for you. There fans and coolers are the most silent that I ever seen if you can't afford liquid cooling.