[Ideas] PR Future Engine Ideas and Suggestions

[MrSh@vid]

@Above- I really don't see how $30 a year is scammy, that's a f**k of a lot cheaper than most games.
I've spent £35 on a game for the 360 which is designed to give me 10hours tops of game play. Many people could clock that up in 2 days on PR. So the price that Egg mentioned (while not final obv') seems bloody fantastic.
For the amount of new content that is released compared to other games, the price seems in my eyes ludicrously low.

[nicoX]

@Above- I really don't see how $30 a year is scammy, that's a f**k of a lot cheaper than most games.
I've spent £35 on a game for the 360 which is designed to give me 10hours tops of game play. Many people could clock that up in 2 days on PR. So the price that Egg mentioned (while not final obv') seems bloody fantastic.
For the amount of new content that is released compared to other games, the price seems in my eyes ludicrously low.

It's not the price, I don't mind if it costs £5 or £100, it's the subscription service I'm not a fan off.
I'm speaking for my self, there are offcourse those that think this way is the better way.
But it's not, because then every game developer company would release games this way.
And how do we know it will turn out good, is there anything we can compare it with? WOW, sure but PR isn't WOW nor attracts that big playerbase.

[AquaticPenguin]

It's not the price, I don't mind if it costs £5 or £100, it's the subscription service I'm not a fan off.
I'm speaking for my self, there are offcourse those that think this way is the better way.
But it's not, because then every game developer company would release games this way.
And how do we know it will turn out good, is there anything we can compare it with? WOW, sure but PR isn't WOW nor attracts that big playerbase.

ARMA maybe? and we know it'll turn out good because of how good PR is ^_^. As they said it's a WIP and if/when it gets to the stage of subscription it's up to you to decide whether you want to pay for it

[abbadon101]

If you were to go down the line of a subscription then a 12 monthly and 6 monthly subscription are the way to go but I would rather pay $60-70 for a one off complete ownership than $30 a year as a subscription.

I personally think a one off payment would be better but the DEVs would need to decide what will allow them to actually develop a full Project Reality.

[Hauler]

Well if we pay, what kind of support are we talking about? As it is now we don't see updates for months at a time and if this is going to be the way for the Devs to persist then I will have to say I would not even think about paying anything. Now if PR2 were to be a game that was constantly updated and if there were bugs that were hindering gameplay but those could be dealt with in a 2 week span then I would have to consider this. Even though PR is a mod in my mind and should stay that way.

The C4 engine looks a bit dated and I mean only if the game can compete with destructible environments and innovations that other games have then I would surely buy it if it could compete with other product innovations.It has to have a fantastic support network. Anything less is not worth or justifying any money.

For all that this seems like a top notch idea. I think a lot of thought has gone into it and I hope that some of the details around payment can come clear here in the next couple of months. For me I'm a student with a limited funds. I will also be going for my CCIE after school which isn't cheap either. So for me to look at 2011 and want to put 30 extra dollars on my 12 month statement is not really something I would want to commit to via a payment plan.

Also what happens if people sign up for 2 years but the game does not hold up to standard? What happens to those people that signed a 2 year deal but the game failed after 1?

Like I said these are concerns and questions I have but I applaud the thought of all this.

[llPANCHOll]

I wouldnt mind paying a yearly subscription, I allready pay $80 a year to help maintain the Tactical Gamer Server, that and another $30 for PR would be $110 a year. Hell I used to spend that in one night at the bar.

Thats $0.30 a day. Pretty Cheap, I should probably sponsor a Hungry Child as well now that I am looking at my reasoning.

The only real concern I have is the incorporation of NPC's into the game structure, I am after all a vehement "ANIT-BOTITE".

[space]

And how do we know it will turn out good, is there anything we can compare it with? WOW, sure but PR isn't WOW nor attracts that big playerbase.

I agree - what is PR's playerbase atm? maybe 4000 players at the most ( though a good proportion of them fanatical players ) How egg expects to increase that to over 100 000, whilst charging for it, I don't know, but I'm sure hes got something planned.
Im also slightly puzzled why PR2 would need an income of $3 million a year to break even, when its being developed with minimal costs.

and we know it'll turn out good because of how good PR is ^_^.

Theres a big difference between PR1 and PR2.

To use a car analogy, PR1 is a commercial production car that's been bought, and then had the engine tuned and a bodykit fitted in someone's back yard.

PR2 is trying to create a commercial production car from scratch in someones backyard.

As Ive said before on the forum, I have serious doubts about PR2 being an indie game, and I think its takes focus off PR1, which is still several releases away from being complete.

But good luck anyway.

[Hauler]

YouTube - Quick sniper rifle zoom test

That is a look at a mod being made for the C4 Engine. Could look like this for PR2.

[space]

YouTube - Quick sniper rifle zoom test

That is a look at a mod being made for the C4 Engine. Could look like this for PR2.

Lets hope it doesnt look like this :



jk -

There some nice screenshots of levels on the C4 engine here:

C4 Engine Images

[Zimmer]

THe C4 engine seems really good, I watched a fire effect and it was really good.

@hauler: There isnt really alot of games who adds so much to the updates that PR devs do, why we dont see alot of updates is because most big bugs are ruled out in the beta stage, or it will come a hotfix, but most bugs are vBf2 related and cant be touched that means there is no need for more regular updates, what I see in every update is so much content that they could be made as expansion packs, and not a new update.

[Drav]

The thing is guys is that no one has made anything that really makes the C4 engine shine yet. The interior technology is mostly complete, but for instance the foliage implementation still has to go in and some of the other stuff that is quite critical to any large scale environment, but the good news is it gets improved with each release, and the guy making it is pretty switched on. So ye I agree that the demos\examples dont look that great yet, but there is great potential.....

[eggman]

The thing is guys is that no one has made anything that really makes the C4 engine shine yet. The interior technology is mostly complete, but for instance the foliage implementation still has to go in and some of the other stuff that is quite critical to any large scale environment, but the good news is it gets improved with each release, and the guy making it is pretty switched on. So ye I agree that the demos\examples dont look that great yet, but there is great potential.....

The "world of subways" subway simulator was recently awarded "best serious game" at the Leipzig Games Festival. Another game that integrated Havok physics with C4 was recently awarded 3rd place at an Intel Game Developer contest (funded by Intel after Intel bought Havok).

I agree - what is PR's playerbase atm? maybe 4000 players at the most ( though a good proportion of them fanatical players ) How egg expects to increase that to over 100 000, whilst charging for it, I don't know, but I'm sure hes got something planned.
Im also slightly puzzled why PR2 would need an income of $3 million a year to break even, when its being developed with minimal costs.

I continue to find most of your "insights" to be lacking in fact and insulting in their presumptions.

The current unique player base for PR in 2009 is a factor of almost 20 more than you think. Income for an indie game like PR (or for any game) will see 50% of the gross income go to the publisher. The size of team required to develop, test and manage a game like PR2 is typically going to be 20 to 25 involved in production, management and testing; and another 20 in support roles (marketing, community management, etc). That won't necessarily be significantly different for PR2. We have an idea of how we are going to manage the "sweat equity" and how that will relate to distribution of the revenue should here ever be any.

Regarding 100k "subscribers" at $30 each... That's $3,000,000 annualized. Take 50% of that and allocate it to the publisher. Take $1,500,000 and take 25% off the top for taxation, that leaves $1,125,000. For simplicity sake say there are 30 people who get an equal share of that and you get $37,500 per person income *after those people* have worked for 2 (or more) years for free to get to where the product is capable of generating revenue.

So take that first year income and, for simplicity sake, divide it by 3 (2 years production, 1 year operations). Now you end up with about $12,500 annual income. For part time passion / hobby work that's a decent bit of change. But it's not "puzzling" as your post implies. It's pretty presumptive to think that the PR developers should continue to work for free. Why the hell should we NOT look to make a reasonable income off this?

The most successful mod title on BF42 was Desert Combat. They went on to form Trauma Studios, then got swallowed and regurgitated by EA, then went on to form KAOS Studios, develop Frontlines and have recently been contracted to develop another title. Why should the PR team not look to that sort of success as an ambition?

A lot of folks in this thread and in this community probably wouldn't pay any money for anything. Some will. Ideally we can look at a model that will appeal to both... meaning we may consider having a limited free client and another subscription based client. But regardless of the model we'll need to look at broadening the reach of PR2 outside of the existing PR community.

egg

[space]

I continue to find most of your "insights" to be lacking in fact and insulting in their presumptions.

There was nothing presumptuous in my post, or insulting, (unless you'd like to point out where) so I'm sorry that you see it that way. I thought all my questions, were valid questions, which hadn't been answered before.

[Nitneuc]

Why should the PR team not look to that sort of success as an ambition?

Agree with that, you guys have the skills and desserve to become real game developers. I'll happily pay such a small annual price for the über-PR you're planning to do.

Keep up the good work, realistic shooters fans need you !

[Nozium]

World of Subways-C4 Engine

[space]

Great graphics - slightly linear gameplay though

[eggman]

There was nothing presumptuous in my post, or insulting, (unless you'd like to point out where) so I'm sorry that you see it that way. I thought all my questions, were valid questions, which hadn't been answered before.

You presume to know the size of the PR player base.

You indicate that I stated an intention to increase the player base to 100,000+ (not what I said).

You presume that .. PR2 is being developed with minimal cost implying that everyone should intend to work for free (the actual studio development costs for a PR2 scope would be on the order of $25,000,000 +).

You presume to have some sort of clue regarding the economics behind game development making the statement "Im also slightly puzzled why PR2 would need an income of $3 million a year to break even...".

And on top of that you have a mostly negative perspective on the possibilities. So you lack facts, make presumptions and then inject your negative viewpoint on the venture.. then top it off with "but good luck" to mollify the otherwise negative tone to the post. Why bother posting if you don't have any questions, make claims that are not based in fact and have largely a negative contribution to add after you have already repeatedly made your negative point?

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and predict failure. Boring too.

egg

[gazzthompson]

that "world of subway" video really shows the great lighting in the game... getting more excited about this engine.

[Cpt. Trips]

Great graphics - slightly linear gameplay though

Yeah. I wasn't too keen on the 'on rails' approach to the genre.

[space]

You presume to know the size of the PR player base.

You indicate that I stated an intention to increase the player base to 100,000+ (not what I said).

You said that the player base is a factor of 20 over 4000, so thats 80 000 players by your "facts". There may well have been that many downloads, but I stand by my estimation that theres around 4000 regular players. Also you said this a few posts back:

I know the economics being this stuff.. and we'd need upwards of 100k subscribers to get even remotely close to breaking even.

egg

So that would indicate to me you were aiming to increase the player base above 100 000 player, unless you are planning to lose money.

You presume to have some sort of clue regarding the economics behind game development making the statement "Im also slightly puzzled why PR2 would need an income of $3 million a year to break even...".

I was puzzled because you mentioned earlier in the thread that there was an almost not existent budget, and that it was unlikely that a publisher would be involved. The point was, that Im puzzled because I don't have some sort of clue regarding the economics of the game, and $3 million pa, seemed a alot, based on what you had said earlier.

And on top of that you have a mostly negative perspective on the possibilities. So you lack facts, make presumptions and then inject your negative viewpoint on the venture.. then top it off with "but good luck" to mollify the otherwise negative tone to the post. Why bother posting if you don't have any questions, make claims that are not based in fact and have largely a negative contribution to add after you have already repeatedly made your negative point?

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and predict failure. Boring too.

egg

I haven't repeatedly made negative posts - it was my first post in this thread, and I was just stating my concerns for the mod. If youre only allowed to post positive opinions on this plan, then please say so.

I got flamed in a very similar way 3 months ago, when I questioned the use of the TGEA engine, and was then accused of calling you morons for choosing to use it. When I mentioned that TGEA was **** and that C4 might be a better engine, I was accused of doing "very surface level research". link

It's pretty presumptive to think that the PR developers should continue to work for free. Why the hell should we NOT look to make a reasonable income off this?

Im happy to work for PR for free, just as many other present and past members of the team have done so. PR's success is built on the fact that so many people, have invested so much time, for free, to benefit the mod rather than themselves.

Just my opinion.