Sharing

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-27 20:21

Well we all know PRMM is a reality mod. We've all noticed that on every successive build, it seems to get more and more realistic, each time the devs manage to tackle an unrealistic aspect of our sister vBF2, eradicating it from the game and making it even more realistic. Well, I think I know what the next thing that should be challenged is.

Ammo bags.

Yes, ammo bags. Those little satchels that carry ammunition of all shapes and sizes. They carry ammo from every gun ranging from the western world to the middle east, right over to the far east. M16? You got it! AK-47? You got it! Ammo of all calibres from pistols to rockets, it's in there. And the best bit? Over time they literally spawn right on you. How cool is that?

Despite PRMM's efforts to make this more realistic, namely in their execution of the time delay for ammo collection, I don't think the issue is correctly addressed. It's still a little... well... silly. I know anyone can nitpick little things from BF2 that aren't completely accurate, but this is definetely one of them that I believe can be addressed given enough attention by the developers.

So, from another thread, I've come to the conclusion that this is the best solution.

Sharing. Yes, sharing. Let's take the USMC for example. The 30 rounds magazines carrying the 5.56 NATO ammo work in the M4 and the M16. That's the Spec Ops, Assault and Medic class covered. Also, the M249 is compatible with this very same ammunition, so that includes the Support class too. All the M9 pistols used by the USMC carry the same 9mm magazines, and I think the P226 takes the mags too. What does this mean? Well, wouldn't it be a good idea if they could share their ammo?

What I propose is this: ammunition is to be distributed in magazine form. No more miracle bags carrying every ammo for every weapon. Certain classes can carry more magazines than others, and it's their responsibility to distribute the magazines. How does this work? Certain classes have the option to yield the magazines of their primary ammunition to give to other players. For example, you select a certain weapon slot and you're shown your player holding a mag. You're given the ammo count to the left, exactly proportional to the ammo of your primary weapon. You can toss the ammo by left clicking or drop it by right clicking and then it's free to be picked up by someone using a compatible weapon. The Spec Ops, Assault, Medic and Support class could all pick up or throw down the M16 magazines. Every USMC soldier could pick up the 9mm cartridges, and let's say the Anti Tank class gets the added duty of throwing down these magazines.

By default, each class would carry the same amount of magazines for their weapons. The only change would be the maximum magazines for the assault class would be increase by a fair bit. Let's say he can hold 10 magazines which he's either free to use himself or to share. He can start off with 5, but by visiting a friendly transport vehicle or supply crate he can increase his mags. It's his choice and his duty to ensure his men get this. In the event an assault guy isn't around, any bearer of this ammunition can still share it, that's the beauty of it. Even if the might support gunner runs out of ammo bags, he can still load his weapon with the M16 mags by means of an alternative ammo method. Think about the old shotgun options from 0.25. You could switch between slug and buckshot ammo. Well, you can switch between standard box ammunition and magazines, though be default the support class starts with no magazines. He can be given them, but would that really be the best use of the limited ammunition? You decide.

What of all the other weapons and ammo; claymores, grenades, mines, C4, SLAMs, rockets, sniper mags, SMG mags etc? Well, the frag grenades may be distributed by the engineer class, but that's about it. All the other specialist ammo and weapons needs to be collected directly from a resupply point, such as a supply crate or a transport vehicle. This will dramatically decrease their effectiveness outside of a squad. An assaultman is no longer your best option, you're going to need a car or a squad leader to get a supply crate in if you want to use these classes. Supply crates are now of a much higher importance if you want to use your AT rockets or anti tank mines.

So, what of the MEC and PLA? Well, firstly it's important that two new weapons are implemented. For the PLA, they'll be needing the Type 95 assault rifle, the QBZ-95. It's basically the same as the Support weapon on their team, just with a smaller barrel and it fires 30 round magazines. If this was the case, then just like the USMC the Spec Ops, Assault, Medic and Support classes would all fire the same ammunition from the same magazines. As the support weapon of the PLA uses C magazines, a standard magazine would also fit. They also all use the same pistols, so again this is no problem. The MEC would require the AK-74 assault rifle, which fires the same ammo as the Spec Ops' AKS-74U and the RPK-74. Again, they can share.

One of the coolest features of this is when you steal an enemy's rifle. Now you'll not be so fast to restore your ammo, as it's not so easy getting rounds that fit. You'll have to find a transort vehicle native to that team to restock, or get some from a supply crate. It'd be real nice if country specific supply crates were made, then it'd be important to steal ammo from an enemy supply crate! An alternative method of getting foreign ammo would be to take another weapons bag and throw down their magazines and then pick it up with the bag you just had. Sounds complicated, but serves you right for stealing!

As I've said many times, I have no experience in the field of actually making this work. I understand it's easy for me to point out all these wonderful ideas, but it's another thing for you guys to actually put them into motion. I really hope this idea is considered, if it is at all possible. I'd love to see this system used in the game, it would not only increase teamwork ethics, but also the realism factor and the overall 'wow' this mod would have against all the others.

Well done if you read all that. Feel free to critiqué.

Post by **Rhino** » 2006-05-27 20:31

from the 1st 2 or 3 sections it sounds like a hell of alot of work for very little reward.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-27 20:36

It'd totally overhaul the way the gameplay works for ammunition resupply. Yes, the creation process would take a while, it's not your run of the mill quick fix with a coding change. But, that's the beauty of it. Very few mods add new content outside the realm of models for guns and vehicles. Very few even attempt to change the gameplay dynamics put in place by BF2, because it takes too much effort. So far, what I've seen from PRMM proves that you guys are willing to push the boundaries. Yeah, this'll take a lot of work, but it'll seriously shake up the way the game works. A minor feature, but one that's going to attract a fair bit of attention. The gameplay will be improved as players will once again be influenced to work better as teams. They're not forced to do it, it's just made the best option. Stick with a squad so you can get more ammo. Stick with a squad leader so you can get a supply drop.

I think this would be great, if only it was easier to do.

fred450 · Post by **fred450** » 2006-05-27 20:38

I agree with Malik's idea. that would be great, if possible to do. I only think that would be more realistic if at least China sticks with the AK-47 and 7.62mm compatible weapons.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-27 20:51

China is making the switch to the QBZ family of weapons firing the 5.8mm ammo. Currently the in game Spec Ops class uses the 5.8mm firing CAR-95 and the QBB-95 LSW support weapon. Adding the the full size QBZ-95 would just require a little adjustment to the support rifle, making the barrel little smaller. It'd be the default rifle for the assault class and medic class making the whole family complete. A grenade launcher would have to be added too, but by the looks of this tiny image it's pretty much the M203. Alternatively the chinese could just use hand grenades, definetely would add a little variety.

The AK-74 could use the same model as the AK-101 or just use the AK-47 model, they all look really similar and only minor tweaks would need to be made to the weapons for them to look realistic.

fred450 · Post by **fred450** » 2006-05-27 21:12

As for the amount of work required, I think ideas like this on this thread should be priority over other implements like new countries, vehicles and weappons additions. Because what sets PRMM apart from the other mods out there is that it's a rethinking of the main vBF2 gameplay, instead of just a cosmetic change.

But I don't understand much about modding, so I can't say if implements are humanly possible or not.

Globetrotter · Post by **Globetrotter** » 2006-05-27 21:24

i like the idea for sharing the ammo.

but some classes has to change theyr weapons. but its a nice idea.
dont forget to delete the claymor and perhaps the AT mine. so pioneer can do the job of re ammo the troops because he is driving the vehicle (Car).

i think for about an empty slot where he can choose wich ammo he wants to pick up like an AT missle or 10 mags of assult ammo or 5 grenades/grenades launcher or 2 C4.
then he can carrie the ammo to the troops and get back to the car.
he only can repair vehicles if he is near by the car.
the car gives him repairpoints wich he can use to repair the vehicle like this.
about 3m around the car he has to stand.

it makes the antitank more important to resuply him like it is in real. and anti tank is havy to play because if you dont hit you have to hide or run...like it is in real. and it makes the tank more important because he is stronger and dont fall that fast , he is the joker on a map. but if he dont take care of AT he will blown away.

i think for a new class on airplane maps... dont put the AA vehicles or the stinger on a map make it mobile as a stinger tropper like a friend of mine is.
he carrie a stinger with and a small MP. just make it also like the antitank with only one shot. this is really realistic.

and dont forget the medic PLZZZ! this defribilator tool is such a stupid tool. it destroy the whole MOD. the medic has to take the wounded on his back and carrie him to the next Car where he can heal him.

also the damage of troops can be upgraded. i think if you fall behinde 50% your unit cant run anymore and if you fall behind 30% you walking slower and you will die in 90sec if you dont find a medic with its car. if you fall you still have 10% of health and in 30sec this 10% go to 0% and then you are dead.
so a medic has to carrie you to his vehicle and heal you there, what you think about it ?? you can make it also with a empty slot and a wounded can put in this empty slot. you will need a new skin for this.. medic with troop on his back.
i think if your health fall behind 10% your screen turns black because you are in coma. so you dont have to animate the carrie of a medic for the fallen one.
if you think 30sec are to less to carrie the troop back to vehicle you can do it like this: if medic get the wounded on his back you die slower 30 sec go to 60sec because he stop bleeding first bevore he carrie you back.

so are the vehicles. if vehicle has behind 50% the vehicle gets slower if the vehicle goes behind 30% it cant drive any more if it falls behind 10% it will explode in 30 sec from alone because its burning.
what you think of this damage model... i will love you if you can implement that.

Globetrotter · Post by **Globetrotter** » 2006-05-27 21:46

at all the modder in this team.. its not about time really its not.
i will play your mod because i like the way you did it and you will do in future.

from my side you can have 1/2 yeahr or more to make it real because all of us can wait for a game they really like to play.

your mod is great and if you all still listen to the community it will grow better and bigger.

my clan will make a root server with your mod to service german region with a fast server.

Andrew_Kirk_25 · Post by **Andrew_Kirk_25** » 2006-05-27 23:04

Hell Yes.

Only problem is coding it in. That could be tricky.

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-27 23:22

'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino']from the 1st 2 or 3 sections it sounds like a hell of alot of work for very little reward.

I agree. Mallik you have outstanding ideas! I would strongly encourage you to roll up your sleeves and get into BF2 hacking hehe. It will give you some perspective of what it takes to get this stuff done.

If you are able to get stuff like that done, hell we'd LOVE to have you on the team

egg

Razen · Post by **Razen** » 2006-05-27 23:31

A LOT more realistic than the ammo bags, and a LOT more cooler.

Hope this can be implemented.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-27 23:36

Yeah, I think I'm going to start teaching myself some of this stuff soon. I'm always full of great ideas but I just don't have what it takes to put any of them into action. Hope they get that bfeditor forum working again.

Neuromante · Post by **Neuromante** » 2006-05-27 23:48

Very nice idea Malik. It shouldn't be that hard to code, at least for the mag sharing part. The hard part would be avoiding given mags to resupply different caliber weapons or explosive weapons.

Anyway, it's something I'd definitely want to see in a way or another.

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-27 23:58

Neuromante wrote:Very nice idea Malik. It shouldn't be that hard to code, at least for the mag sharing part. The hard part would be avoiding given mags to resupply different caliber weapons or explosive weapons.
Anyway, it's something I'd definitely want to see in a way or another.

Perfect!

You can both work on it

Unless you've done modding on the BF2 platform, uh..... really don't make any judgements on how hard or easy soemthing is.... most of it is not near as easy as it looks. Or it can be done, but would consume gargantuan effort (at the expense of many other aspects of the mod).

egg

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-28 00:06

Globetrotter wrote: and dont forget the medic PLZZZ! this defribilator tool is such a stupid tool. it destroy the whole MOD. the medic has to take the wounded on his back and carrie him to the next Car where he can heal him.

Have fun not getting healed / revived EVER again.
No offence, but seeing how few people even use the (easy-to-use) defibrillator these days already, I can't see ANYONE playing medic and doing this in the future.

Globetrotter · Post by **Globetrotter** » 2006-05-28 00:28

???? burning ???? why never get revived ????
i like to play medic and i like the mission to riveve one. as medic you always have a mission. as sniper you just sitting around and smoke cigarettes. the best way to play is as medic, antitank and assult.

and i will revive everyone and carrie him to my car to heal him. because you doing it for your team and not for your self. this MOD is all about teamplay and if you think no one heals you then he is in wrong mod and can go play normal bf2.

i also want to learn how to mod and map.. i downloaded editor 3 days ago as i played this mod for the first time to see how hard it is to mod this game.

in the first 2 hours i understand nothing in the editor but at time i made my first skin for assult. i made a cigarett package on his helmet...¨
and i tried to make my first map but i dont find some struktures in my directory make my map perfect. perhaps i have to export some struktures from CSS or something like that.

i tried to mod a gun but im not sure what ive done because now the gun fires but no hit. the bullet dont comes out of the gun loool

but im going forward to learn more and i will help at the realism project if im able to. at time im to worse. think in about one month i can realise much more and then perhaps i can help a little bit.

Post by **MasterTom** » 2006-05-28 00:29

at this point...
my official opinion is: 'can NOT be done'...
why?
in the bf2 engine the ammokit is basically the same thing as the medickit...
they both 'replenish' something...
the medickit does health obviously... and the ammokit ammo.

Anyway...
the way the engine refers to em is:
ammokit.blablabla.ReplenishingType RTammo
Unless there's a way to specify new variables (which im quite sure there's not)... its not doable.

Really like the idea tho...

Globetrotter · Post by **Globetrotter** » 2006-05-28 00:42

so you bind the ammo on a vehicle-support soldier. means only if the support soldier stands near a vehicle he can re ammo persons. but plz dont let him trough packages only hold the ammo bag in his hand like medic is doing.

and with the medic tool. ive a new idea. make the defribo away and let the soldiers who fall have 10% health left if medic heal him over 10% with the medi bag he stands up again. what you think about this idea ??

this should be able to do no ??

and whats about the damage system i told about?? if a trooper falls behind 50% he cant run anymore, behinde 30% he walk slower and begins to bleeding to death, 10% = black monitor and fallen, still bleeding toll certain death (30sec) i think.

also the vehicle. slower behind 50%, not moveable at 30% and burning down 10%.

this should can be done PLZ !

eddie · Post by **eddie** » 2006-05-28 01:06

Malik, here's one for the sig: You are a God of intelligence and creative genius.

Seriously, I thought of ways of changing the ammo system, hell I even thought, why be able to have a man dispense ammo?

Your simple yet genius idea has ensured the PR community gauranteed gossip for a month or many to come.

One thing, what about the snipers

?

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-28 01:12

Globetrotter wrote:???? burning ???? why never get revived ????

I never get revived because 90% of the peple playing this game on public servers are retards and don't care about teamplay as of now.

i like to play medic and i like the mission to riveve one. as medic you always have a mission. as sniper you just sitting around and smoke cigarettes. the best way to play is as medic, antitank and assult.

You're preaching to the priest here.
I realize that when playing as a medic, it is your job to revive and heal your wounded teammates.
Most people playing on public servers these days don't quite seem to get this though.
I usually end up with 1 or 2 medics close to me, even half a minute after all the nearby enemies have been defeated, and they still won't bother to press "6", run over to my near-corpse, click the left mouse button and get me back into the game.

The process is so simple already and still most people don't bother to make use of it.
Do you think that by making it even more complicated or dangerous, people would enjoy playing as medic more and therefore actually help you more often ?

and i will revive everyone and carrie him to my car to heal him. because you doing it for your team and not for your self. this MOD is all about teamplay and if you think no one heals you then he is in wrong mod and can go play normal bf2.

Yeah, you might actually do that. You and maybe 1 or 2 other people on the server, but that's about it.
The majority of the people won't bother to help their team if the process gets more complicated or dangerous than it already is (seeing as people don't do it with the "simple" system already).

EDIT:
Same goes for ammo.
Malik's idea might be realistic and all, but even these days I usually find myself running after assault guys (if anybody bothers to play it anyway) yelling "NEED AMMO!" all the freaking time and the people won't even bother to just drop me a pack pf ammunition.
Do you guys think that people would rather give out ammo to their teammates if, again, the process gets even more complicated than it already is ?

I'm for improving the gameplay of this mod by all means, and if we can get it done in a way that seems more realistic, I'm all for it.

But we have to keep in mind that this game (and this mod even more so) is relying HEAVILY on very good teamwork.
Now we offer people VERY simple tasks to significantly help their team (press "6", then press the left mouse button and thereby help your whole squad by restocking their ammunition - it's THAT simple and people STILL DON'T FUCKING DO IT).

We have to encourage people to teamplay and to use the functions their kits / classes offer them.
By making everything as close as possible to reality, we will make the gameplay a lot more difficult and challenging - too difficult for most people.

What good are 10 medics or 10 assault guys when not a single one will bother to use complicated game mechanics to help their team ?