.86 Project Reality taking a fall?

[baptist_christian]

I dont think there is a place for sniper rifle anymore in PR, as all the weapons have effective scopes. Unless you decide to take ballistics in, which this game really needs. We've seen the same old PR with some fancy eye candy, but there hasn't been anything major going on lately but gameplay tweaks to wrong directions (imo). I really wish ,9 will be epic, unlike the previous releases which have been just epic on the release day, but week after fallen under "okay" category..

I'm just waiting something that will make the changes you have done in the past worth it. To me PR development looks downhill, as all the features I've enjoyed doesn't really exist anymore the way they used to.

I've maybe been around for too long, thus its easier to remember stuff from good ol'e days..

Anyway, if you calculate the success of PR in quantity over quality, that's fine. But I think they both should walk hand to hand.

well it doesn't seem like they have a place anymore, sure, but that's only because its hard for snipers to avoid the entire battle. The purpose of a sniper is to avoid that and go strait for high value targets, like officers.

[space]

Warren - Pro tip - saying you don't agree with something, or that you dislike something, is almost always taken as a personal attack in the weird world of PR.

Seriously its easier just to leave them to it, rather than give feedback - you wont change anything, and like you say its just a game

[M.Warren]

Warren, you go about the DEV team as if their getting paid to do what they do. They DON'T. They toil away and get this **** in return. Really makes me sick...You also speak in a manner where your opinion is the only one that matters. However, if the team were to listen to your side of the story, where would that leave the people on the other side?

Here, first off take a look at this:

I count 41 Developers that visited the forum today. This doesn't include the ones that haven't visted the forums or the [R-CON]'s.


Project Reality has the largest team of probably ANY mod out there. Do you know how many developers made the U.S. Intervention mod? If I recall correctly, it's three. I understand they're not getting paid for what they do and what they accomplish is a sacrifice and that's fine. But I think it's safe to say that PR is far better off than any other mod out there in relation to support. PR is not the same mini-mod as it was several years ago. It's a full blown and rather well-oiled mod machine that I have ever seen in my life.

With that in mind, I'm stating this:

I think the PR team should consult their community more openly about the changes they intend to do for upcoming releases with their public community. It doesn't need to be shrouded in secrecy. Why would it need to be kept discreet before every release if it's community is so large and popular?

But you also must understand that PR also has ambitions of it's own. PR v0.85 was being posted in the BF2 after-login screen popup message. In other words PR was advertising to the common BF2 player. Which in a way, is ironic as PR used to be a very subtle and closed community of players that wanted to keep to ourselves. Kinda odd isn't it?

After all, I had voted for this mod in the MODDB contest to win. And so it did. I feel that like myself and any other person who plays the mod should have an award winning mod next year as well. I'm not asking for the community to become a bunch of pitchfork-toting usurpers. It just seems at times that the mod is taking a path that doesn't always coincide with what it's player base wants.

Do you feel as concerned ChiefRyza or are you happy with what you have?

[M.Warren]

Seriously its easier just to leave them to it, rather than give feedback - you wont change anything, and like you say its just a game

You used to be an [R-CON] to the PR team. Now you're saying that I won't change anything. Is there something I should know?

[space]

You used to be an [R-CON] to the PR team. Now you're saying that I won't change anything. Is there something I should know?

Im sure PR will be just fine. There still several creative and very productive people in the PR mod team, and many of them still play PR, so some will agree with your points, and understand some of the problems you point out.

As I said when I resigned, I wish PR all the best in the future, and no I dont have some kind of secret R-CON insight

[KingLorre]

Hey, I got your back. I've even been offered [R-CON] in the past but I declined as I prefer a broader spectrum in my ability to speak freely. I had even been searching the forums once or twice, one second I saw someone as an [R-CON] and the next minute he looked like a regular forum member. I even know people that aren't [R-CON]'s or [R-DEV]'s anymore simply because the path PR is taking doesn't fit their style.

Some people are under the impression that I want to tear PR down. Which certainly isn't the case. I do like PR very much and I just want a positive change just like many other individuals that are coming to surface around here. I'm happy to see that people are concerned as I am and want to have it progress in a more suitable fashion.

It's not like I'm claiming conspiracy, it's a game for gods sake.

A mod for a game that alot of people put alot of work and free time in, so we can enjoy that, and if you like things or not you do have to respect it.

Iv played PR since 0.32 and i must say i love it to this day, i have hated curtain changes ofcourse, but i was able to step over them and move along, not staying behind with the people that always start about the Good ol days, wake up they are not coming back. alot of people think 0.5 was the most fun release, id say every new PR brings upon it new challanges, if they changed the balistics, we have to adapt, if they remove squad spawning, we have to adapt, If planes fire new weaponry we have to adapt, if you like it or not, the devs take into consideration all of the aspects, then decide what option is best for gameplay, balance, reality's sake. they are all competend people whove been doing this for years(exept Rhino, hes a nub (obviously kidding :mrgreen ).

and if i must be fair, thus far i have yet to encounter a part in 0.865 that wasnt polished. ofcourse there a bugs and things that people dont like, but for the love of god adapt, see it like a challange, try to be the best with what weve got and as soon as the new release comes things will be different again, things will be FRESH.

I'd say it keeps things fun.

[Rhino]

Here, first off take a look at this:

I count 41 Developers that visited the forum today. This doesn't include the ones that haven't visted the forums or the [R-CON]'s.


Project Reality has the largest team of probably ANY mod out there. Do you know how many developers made the U.S. Intervention mod? If I recall correctly, it's three. I understand they're not getting paid for what they do and what they accomplish is a sacrifice and that's fine. But I think it's safe to say that PR is far better off than any other mod out there in relation to support. PR is not the same mini-mod as it was several years ago. It's a full blown and rather well-oiled mod machine that I have ever seen in my life.

you need to keep in mind that only a few developers work on the mod at any one time, I was away last week so I had nothing to do with the actual release of v0.86 (although I did quite a few bug fixes etc for v0.86) and many devs dont have time or are not in a position to work but they still check up on the forums to see what's going on etc as you really need to keep upto date with the current things being worked on etc. I would say the mod has about 10 core developers at any one time doing the bulk of the work, with many other devs chipping in little bits here and there with the mappers slowly working on there own projects until they are finished. So all in all, when there may appear to be lots happening most of the time we just have people chipping away slowly at stuff. If we all worked flat out then we would simply burn ourselves out.

With that in mind, I'm stating this:

I think the PR team should consult their community more openly about the changes they intend to do for upcoming releases with their public community. It doesn't need to be shrouded in secrecy. Why would it need to be kept discreet before every release if it's community is so large and popular?

We use to do this now and then in the past but more recently become more closed up, might be an idea to get the community more involved but then we have to spend ages wading though the spam to find any decent comments which is the main reason why quite a lot of devs dont read most of the public forums.

But you also must understand that PR also has ambitions of it's own. PR v0.85 was being posted in the BF2 after-login screen popup message. In other words PR was advertising to the common BF2 player. Which in a way, is ironic as PR used to be a very subtle and closed community of players that wanted to keep to ourselves. Kinda odd isn't it?

After all, I had voted for this mod in the MODDB contest to win. And so it did. I feel that like myself and any other person who plays the mod should have an award winning mod next year as well. I'm not asking for the community to become a bunch of pitchfork-toting usurpers. It just seems at times that the mod is taking a path that doesn't always coincide with what it's player base wants.

Do you feel as concerned ChiefRyza or are you happy with what you have?

it is more important than you think to try and advertise to new players to join from any location. Yes many of these players will be vBF2 bunnyhoppers or w/e but some of them find PR is exactly what they have been looking for and as such, increase our player base. the vBF2 players who dont like PR, leave after a certain period of time, its no biggy if you ask me them playing, only down fall is its slightly harder in the first few weeks after a release to find a good squad without playing with your friends.

On what the player base wants, if we went with what the player base wanted back a long long time ago, PR would have ended up exactly like vbf2. Have you forgotten all thous servers that modified the spawn times of vehicles etc so that you would spawn in in 10secs, every vehicle respawns in 30secs, and it was pretty much vbf2 with deadlier weapons. If we didn't enforce our server to not be modified etc which around 70% of the community did not want at the time, do you think PR would be better off than it is now?

[Twisted Helix]

I think the PR team should consult their community more openly about the changes they intend to do for upcoming releases with their public community. It doesn't need to be shrouded in secrecy. Why would it need to be kept discreet before every release if it's community is so large and popular?

Why should we consult the community ? I am not against the idea I am just curious why you think we should do what virtually no development company does (when was the last time you saw EA consulting the public ... except after the fact ?).

FYI we DO listen and poll the community. We do so quite a lot. The very fact that there are a fair few DEVs replying and interacting in this thread should show you that we most certainly pay attention to what the public says, whether or not we act on it ... well that is up to us.

There is a simple basic reason why everything is kept quiet. We dont know whether it will work or not. We dont know who is going to be able to submit work on time. So rather than go "Hey we are going to have hookers in the new version", only to find out that the guy who was modeling the hookers was laid up in an STD clinic and couldn't finish the job. Then we would have to say ... "Sorry guys ... no hookers". And face all the complaining.

Basically we can't win with you folks. If you honestly want to be that involved may I suggest you make a MOD yourselves ?

It just seems at times that the mod is taking a path that doesn't always coincide with what it's player base wants.

Well ... with what you want. You are a player ... yes. But not a player base.

If the player base decreases we will know. If it increases we will know. We will pay attention to that. But no amount of words will make you more than one person (sorry).

[Alex6714]

Warren - Pro tip - saying you don't agree with something, or that you dislike something, is almost always taken as a personal attack in the weird world of PR.

Most truth in whole thread.

[HunterMed]

It just seems at times that the mod is taking a path that doesn't always coincide with what it's player base wants.

Warren, please stop talking for the whole community.

The silent majority of players like PR as it is. Otherwise they wont play it and quit playing or even post here.
Now some are posting and voice their negative points. That's allright, but it is surely not the majority of players posting negative issues or posting at all.

Only because you and others dont like the "path of PR", dont act up as speaker for the community or as wise guy who refused to be part of the "evil mod-machine to go to the dark path", lol.

Also, dont downgrade people who like PR as it is, as stupid "shouting fangirls".


p.s. I really dont have problem with posting negative feedback, but at least to me your tone is not appropriate.
A bit too much wisdom and pathos for me...

[snooggums]

There is a simple basic reason why everything is kept quiet. We dont know whether it will work or not. We dont know who is going to be able to submit work on time. So rather than go "Hey we are going to have hookers in the new version", only to find out that the guy who was modeling the hookers was laid up in an STD clinic and couldn't finish the job. Then we would have to say ... "Sorry guys ... no hookers". And face all the complaining.

Best analogy ever!

I have similar reservations as Warren and while I like like the Dev team's not putting up release dates and keeping some things under wraps, the occasional official feedback thread on a specific issue would be very helpful to let the community see if the community actually knows what the community wants. For example I'd like to see an actual poll on whether the community dislikes the changes to Qwai for example or whether there is just a vocal minority.

[Smuke]

0.75 was PR at its peak IMHO, 0.8 was good, 0.85 was good, but now there is just silly changes such as not being able to select kit during breifing, why have a briefing when you can't organise your squads? the SAW mows down all the squads, ive been on the recieving and giving end of one, and I just think its spoils the fun of the mod, however realistic it is.

For now ArmA2 is my game, until the next release, ill be backing of a bit, just not as fun anymore...

[Welshboy]

0.75 was PR at its peak IMHO, 0.8 was good, 0.85 was good, but now there is just silly changes such as not being able to select kit during breifing, why have a briefing when you can't organise your squads? the SAW mows down all the squads, ive been on the recieving and giving end of one, and I just think its spoils the fun of the mod, however realistic it is.

For now ArmA2 is my game, until the next release, ill be backing of a bit, just not as fun anymore...

It's to stop people changing kits when their criticaly wounded

[Twisted Helix]

Warren - Pro tip - saying you don't agree with something, or that you dislike something, is almost always taken as a personal attack in the weird world of PR.

Actually its the way you say things. Something I guess some of you will have to take some hard knocks in life to learn, but thats neither here nor there.

If you start a conversation with a Celtic supporter and ask him what he thought of the recent game vrs Rangers ... you will get a measured reply (if perhaps a little biased). If you tell him that you think that Celtic played like a bunch of fags ... then you will get glassed (with extreme bias).

Its a simple distinction that is often lost on the young. If you wish intelligent mature discussion then engage the mind with words. If you wish reactionary argumentative behaviour then engage the emotions with words. If you all truly wished to influence PR in the way you claim , then you would think about the way you say things.

Because at present ... all you come across as doing ... is bitching. (dare I say it ... )

[space]

It's to stop people changing kits when their criticaly wounded

I never knew that exploit - maybe we can have the round start timer reduced then, which may also reduce squad bug problems? - It seems to take 10 minutes between a round end, and the next round to be ready to fight. A constant frustration which could be removed/reduced?

[sakils2]

How the hell I'm going to have a brake then, spacy boy?

[space]

How the hell I'm going to have a brake then, spacy boy?

There still the loading time, plus I think 1 - 1.5 minutes is plenty of time to form squads. Im not sure if this would remove squad bug, but if so then thats a bonus.

[M.Warren]

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;1063530']We use to do this now and then in the past but more recently become more closed up, might be an idea to get the community more involved but then we have to spend ages wading though the spam to find any decent comments which is the main reason why quite a lot of devs dont read most of the public forums.[/quote]

Why should we consult the community ? I am not against the idea I am just curious why you think we should do what virtually no development company does (when was the last time you saw EA consulting the public ... except after the fact ?).

In consideration to previous statements that PR evolves, I feel that part of evolution should encompass the trust and support that's given to the PR Public Community. I understand that the Community's intrests may not always coincide with the interests of the Development team. But as we all know, mods don't exist without the Community playing it. Not that PR's going to have a mass exodus within the next week. But the point is that I feel PR should take things to the next level and really try to involve the PR Community at a higher level. Maybe even to a level that we've never seen before between a MOD or a developed game from a true Corporation.

Let's agree that the amount of players playing Project Reality is by far the largest we've ever seen yet. I feel that this is a chance to use our player resources to a greater level than ever before. A feat that would have been otherwise nearly impossible years ago as a mini-mod.

Rather than spending the time making a build then submitting it to the Community and determining if it was a hit or miss, which not only upsets the Community, but also upsets the Developers as well. I know this as I'm flesh and blood no different than anyone else here on the forums. I'm trying to submit a method to you that would (hopefully) remove a large amount of the "trial and error" that takes place within each build of PR. Additionally, this will hopefully remove a considerable portion of displeasure to our veteran community members.

I had spoken to an individual once through PM's about the matter of polling. My suggestion was simple:

1. The PR Developers have decided to make several major changes to gameplay for the upcoming build.
2. The PR Developers and Forum Moderators announce 1-2 weeks ahead of time that a PR Major Build Change Poll will take place.
3. The Forum Moderators create a temporary (or permanent) category in the PR Forums specifically for PR Major Build Change Polls.
4. Only [R-DEV]'s and [R-MOD]'s can add/remove threads within this forum.
5. In these forums each Major Build Change to gameplay will have it's own thread with it's own Poll with several options to select from. This is in regards to what actions should the PR Team take to gameplay changes for the next build at a Public Community level.
6. The Public Community can submit their Poll votes to the desired changes they'd like to see in PR for the upcoming build.
7. The Public Community can post replies within each posted Major Build Change Poll thread.
8. After 2-3 weeks of active voting by the Public Community, the polls are closed.
9. The results are considered by the PR Developer team for the next build.

Well ... with what you want. You are a player ... yes. But not a player base.

If the player base decreases we will know. If it increases we will know. We will pay attention to that. But no amount of words will make you more than one person (sorry).

It's quite all right. But at the same time waiting for the player base to increase or decrease isn't exactly something I would always go by. Because as far as we know, the veteran players could be walking out the door to be replaced by the newcomers.

My belief is that the veterans should be welcomed to stay just as the newcomers are welcome to start playing. That's what partially defines an extraordinary game or mod in my eyes.

This is my sincere suggestion to you. If it doesn't work, so be it, we can always go back to the old-fashioned method afterwards. If it takes flight to unanticipated levels... Then it seems PR has made a yet another breakthrough in gaming history. Imagine the publicity and positive perspective PR may draw if it had gone out of it's way to make it's players happy at a new level? What have you got to lose?

Player involvement is part of what drives Project Reality.

________________________________________

[quote="Outlawz""]You could "consult" the community by brinign back the open betas. [/quote]

I'm glad Outlawz brought this up in the below post. I feel that an option of "Poll Voting" would be far superior of an idea as the Developers can submit several ideas which they deem to coincide with the theme of PR. The Public Community can then vote for which of the several options in the topic and the Developers will still be relatively happy with the decision.

In example: Improve the Automatic Rifleman kit
<Note: Once again... Just for the concept of the "Poll" idea.>

A) Leave as is.
B) Decrease accuracy
C) Decrease scope magnification
D) Revert back to the previous use of LMG's before the v0.86 build.

I wouldn't suggest and open Beta. Largely because of what I had learned as a PR Stress Tester. Most people show up to get in an early gaming session. Not truly play the Beta to solve the issues at the core of the game. The Major Build Change Poll voting idea is probably the best solution for community involvement.

[Outlawz7]

You could "consult" the community by brinign back the open betas.

I know the support for this dropped when every nub confused "final release" and "beta" terms, but just look at what 0.6 OB did:
infinite ammo bag spam was removed, coax RPM was increased, the ticket loss/gain with Insurgency was dealt with (the GB losing themselves the game by mass slaughtering civs whose deaths deducted 10 tickets each ), the Insurgency mode was introduced and tweaked etc.

If there wasn't an OB, the 0.609 would probably roll out with all those issues and we'd have to wait for the 0.613 patch that came 2 months later to fix all that at the time.

Also another issue which was mentioned is that beta and stress testers are a select group of people who play PR in the sort of proper, organized sense, which doesn't include discovering the bugs and exploits that come out when the common player gets the new release onto his hard drive.