General thoughts about ingame death

[[k]MuffinMaster]

I was playing PRMM last night (and the night before.. and that night before... well whatever..) and I was damn frustrated about weapon damage.
I often shot and hit first but my opponent was not impressed and blew me away with no problems, I had the feeling of throwing softballs at my enemy.

When I was in Forgotten Hope Team I read much about firearms injuries and I came to the conclusion that the "one-hit-kill" system would represent reality best.
But... it's a game, so you can't do that. In BF1942 you just had a healthbar and damage had to be expressed in numbers. BF2 is almost the same... BUT !
You have two states of "death".. the "you are injured" screen and the "you are dead" screen.
You could take advantage of this and use it to simulate the different "manstop" powers of the weapons.

Well my suggestion:

All wounds bring you down.
But you don't die after the "you are injured" time.. you insta-revive!
Exymple:
One shot with the pistol: You are injured... 3.. 2.. 1.. revive. Health is down to 50%... another hit... Health is down to zero:
You get to the "you are dead" screen.

Same with the assaultrifle but your "you are injured" time will increase to 10 seconds or whatever.

If a medic is close to you you could be revived normally to shorten the "shock"...

This "falling down" would be a great "hit indicator" and you would get the reward of "drawing quicker"

Different thing:

WE need passive radar!
All enemy and friendly planes/helos should be visible on the map for all
radar equipped vehicles (planes/choppers/tunguska[!!])
Range of all S2A A2A Missiles must be increased.. lock should be increased.
Throw away the bombs. Add Mavericks...

[fred450]

Excellent idea!

[Malik]

This is easily abused. Just imagine a sniper sitting there shooting people just to knock them down. Count to 20, you get up again, he shoots you in the foot again, count to 20, he keeps doing it. Someone comes to help, he knocks them down too.

People hate the dead times more than anything, add more and people will get bored. Fast.

The current damage system is mostly fine. If a shot does more than 50% damage you'll bleed, and that accounts for most gunshot wounds from assault rifles and such.

[fred450]

You're saying sniper shooting ppl down is abuse?

He can't keep doing this because by the second time you're dead.

[Solitas]

This is easily abused. Just imagine a sniper sitting there shooting people just to knock them down. Count to 20, you get up again, he shoots you in the foot again, count to 20, he keeps doing it. Someone comes to help, he knocks them down too.

People hate the dead times more than anything, add more and people will get bored. Fast.

The current damage system is mostly fine. If a shot does more than 50% damage you'll bleed, and that accounts for most gunshot wounds from assault rifles and such.

simple solution, take down the sniper before you revive. Or throw a smoke down.

Any competent squad knows to be careful

If I may though, should a bullet hit the vest theyc ans till be knocked down (naturally) but damage should be minimala dn the should be able to get back up much quicker.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

This is easily abused. Just imagine a sniper sitting there shooting people just to knock them down. Count to 20, you get up again, he shoots you in the foot again, count to 20, he keeps doing it. Someone comes to help, he knocks them down too.

People hate the dead times more than anything, add more and people will get bored. Fast.

The current damage system is mostly fine. If a shot does more than 50% damage you'll bleed, and that accounts for most gunshot wounds from assault rifles and such.

Malik's right. We already have enough snipers as it is, and 1 shot kill will just not keep the game going because of the number of deaths as it is now, along with armor and lack of cover. There is a fine line between reality and fun, but 1 shot kill is not fun.

Think AWP/AWM from CSS. And there are so many times that I run for cover and still get shot even though I am behind cover and this system will not help that. Everytime I move or someone does, 1 shot will take them down, and it isn't likely that the squad, even with smoke, is gonna live to revive the guy.

Also think about the number of MGs we will have. Horrible idea. Worse than a 1 shot kill sniper rifle anywhere.

[fred450]

One shot one kill is the way to go if you ask me. Not only for snipers, but for other weappons too, since they have the same caliber. Unless it's pistol/submachinegun against vest, or a shot to legs or arms. It's unfair when you see the enemy first, shoot him first and gets killed by him instead. Players who think "realism is too hard to me, give me a chance to fire back when I'm ramboing around" or something like that should stick to Counter-Strike, vBF2 or whatever because for sure we don't lack games for that. This is a mod for ppl interested in realism based gameplay.

[Nick666]

I think taking you completly out of action for some seconds is extreme frustrating! You would have no chance to fend yourself in many situations because you simply doesn't get the chance to fire back!
It is a game and you should get a chance to react (in reality you will be dead --> really frustrating )

But I suggest the blurry "shell shock view" for some seconds (time maybe dependend on the weapon) with every hit you catch.
With this, you get a disadvantage but you can still take part in the action!
Together with some other adverse effects (e.g. bleeding, cripled mobility, always blurry view when extreme low health) the most unrealistic class in PRMM could do its job:

The medic could abolish those adverse effects WITHOUT healing or reanimation abilities (healing/reanimation is really unrealistic and have to be adressed in a reality mod!!).

Or better give every soldier the ability to stop a bleeding for himself one or two times (at least in german army every soldier has his own first-aid kit and gets a quick lesson in first aid) and completly cancle th medic-class and healing/reanimation garbage!!

[Malik]

Fred, look up muzzle velocity. If I threw a .50 BMG bullet at you, would it have the same effect as if I loaded it into an M82 and fired it at you? Somehow, I think not. Same calibre, different power.

Just imagine how much fun game abusers could have with this. A guy stands behind you with a pistol. He shoots you. You get up. He shoots you. You get up. He shoots you. What great fun he's having! Now you can only get out of the cycle by committing suicide, losing points in doing so and potentially being booted from the server.

The 30 round SPR is balance now because it takes a couple shoots to down somebody or a lucky headshot. Making it one hit one kill will make it a killing machine and people wouldn't even need to use snipers to have this effect. Pick up a hundred round machine gun and spray everybody.

I'm sure every one of the soldiers on this forum who have seen active duty can tell you they've seen somebody be hit by a bullet and survive. This big myth that no matter what bullet you fire it's one hit one kill isn't true. Soldiers wear armour for a reason.

The damage system is fine.

[Copy_of_Blah]

So if I understand what you're saying you want:

• Remove critical injury and replace it to insta-revive just before the time where normally you'd die (15 sec <- guess)?
• Increase weapon damage.

^ This would be the better way.
Because if it can be made so where you would drop, incapacitated, at every shot then Malik would be right- There would be a drop, get up, drop, get up thing going on until you reached death.

Unless you changed every weapon to have the same damage and that wouldn't be right.


But, I partially agree with the OT. There SHOULD be a way to visually see that you have shot somebody. I'd personally like them to drop in the first or second shot , unless it's from pistol fire. Just as Operation Flashpoint did it, if you were injured enough you would be crawling. If you tried to get up you would fall right back down again. Also your weapon would become unstable and firing would dramatically become inaccurate.

[EON_MagicMan]

I'm willing to bet if they raised weapon damage to one hit kill nobody would play.

You can already kill a guy in half a second flat anyways, with two rifle shots.

We love realism, it sounds fun, but it wouldn't be.

[[k]MuffinMaster]

You can already kill a guy in half a second flat anyways, with two rifle shots.

No. because you would drop to the floor and probalby out of sight...
The guy that shot you does not KNOW he killed you or not.

So if I understand what you're saying you want:

• Remove critical injury and replace it to insta-revive just before the time where normally you'd die (15 sec <- guess)?
• Increase weapon damage.

Almost!
The "injured-time" should be depending on the gun that hit you... let's say:
pistol 1-2 seconds "recovery-time"
assaultrifle/sniper: 5 Seconds...
NOT 15 seconds...

All grenades, Tankshells, HE-ammo and stuff -> Insta-death.

^ This would be the better way.
Because if it can be made so where you would drop, incapacitated, at every shot then Malik would be right- There would be a drop, get up, drop, get up thing going on until you reached death.

Unless you changed every weapon to have the same damage and that wouldn't be right.

You can't get shot repeatedly cause you get to the normal "you are dead" screen after the second hit. -> "injured-time" = 5 sec + 5sec -> 10sec + "You are dead-time" x sec (+ 1 sec everytime you die). So the complete out-of-game time is: (max) 10 sec + X sec.

Now its: 30 secs + X..

You can't get shot while lying on the ground.

The geting-killed-revive-getting-killed-revive-game is ALREADY going on.
Happened to me a million times! I'd rather liked to die and respawn as another class... wait for 29 seconds.... but NO! I get revived... to get shot again... damn... another 29 seconds to go... I 'd rather insta-revive and DIE to respawn.

AND you get +1 second respawn time everytime you die... spawnrapers & artiwhorin' welcome.

[Tacticsniper815]

One shot kill isn't just anywhere in reality it depends on where you hit the target

[Globetrotter]

mmmhhh one shot one kill is not realistic absolutly not!

in war there are more wounded soldiers as killed. because bodys are more resistant against wounds as you think about.

if i shoot you in your leg with an ak you wont die for sure.. you will survive for more than 10 min. till you are bleeding to death. only if i hit you main vene you going to bleed to death without a medic in about 30sec.
also if i hit your body with an ak you wont die. you will see your inside coming out a bit or a small hole in front and a bit bigger in back but you survive it for sure.
only if you hit me in my in my head or my haert then im goin down at second you shot me. you are right with the reaction. if you shoot me in my leg or my arm also my body i wont die but im paralized... means i cant shoot back.
there are some written text about soldiers who get hit by a bullet and still was fighting. they only felt a hit like you are boxing on my shoulder but no paralize and no pain. they was in shock with small brain but the main funktion still runs normally.

so what i can tell you is you wont die in one shot.

[fred450]

Malik, there would be no way to abuse because you'll die if you get hit again.

And I understand same caliber weappons have different power. But still all rifles penetrate vest, no matter if it's a sniper or M4. And I know those vets took a bullet and survived, but it wasn't in the chest or head. Ask them if they kept in the fight or went to the hospital. To avoid crippling the gameplay sending you to the hospital or making you obligated to crawl or not to fire your weappon (everybody will suicide to avoid this), the best thing would be the MuffinMaster idea... or one shot one kill (only to chest and head).

But that's only my opinion. The current damage system is also fine. I would only increase the AK accuracy because it's taking several shoots to kill due to inaccuracy...

[fred450]

OK. To sum up:

REAL LIFE - no such thing as one shot one kill (but you'd be crippled)

PC games - to avoid beeing crippled (which sucks) you'd die to respwan again. Anyway, shots to the leg and arms WONT kill.

[AznLB]

Why not just make it like this:

One shot to anywhere on body and you begin to bleed and are forced down the the "prone" position, unable to fire your weapon. If you try to get back up, you will be knocked back to prone. You would have to crawn to the nearest medic and get healed before you could stand and shoot again. However, keep in mind you are bleeding, so if you don't find a medic, you will eventually die.

If you're shot again, you will die.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Interceptor body armour can take 3 7.62 mm rounds!
The dragon skin can take 50 + = lol, that would make PR balanced!!!

O, and a british soldier to 3 or 4 semi spent rounds to the helmet and was fine!

p.S the US marines where interceptor, and UK marines where pillows, with wooden plates to stop rocks!

[[k]MuffinMaster]

No you won't die... but if you get hit in the leg, well you are out of the battle.
You will probably fall down (leg can't carry your weight anymore). The penetrating bullet will pierce through the flesh, smash bones and ,while moving through the tissue, perform a backflip (well not in the leg but if you are hit in the abdomen...). Maybe the projectile will break in little bits (just two or three, according to the manufacturer of the round, when lead is pressed out of the full-metal-jacket).
If you are lucky these sharp metal bits (or the bullet in whole) miss your leg-artery and you won't bleed in few moments.

And again:

I did not say: "Implement one hit kill!"

I did say: "Implement one hit injury"
the falling down "you are injured 3.. 2.. 1.." is for injury simulation.
because we don't have anything like this now. Now it's more like vanilla BF2.
Maybe there should not be something like this for pistols (to weak) but rifles should
take you down.

Martin Feckler has written a great paper on military rifle wounds:
http://www.fen-net.de/~na1723/army/wound.html

For those that are interested in war-surgery (and speak german):
http://www.vbs-ddps.ch/internet/groupgs ... 012_05.pdf

[Shining Arcanine]

How about having soliders that get shot in the non-vital areas be injured and have varying degrees of disability based on where they were shot, (e.g. leg shot kills mobility, abdomen shot makes them crawl, arm shot makes them be unable to fire) until a medic comes along and helps them out and in addition grant zero points for euthansizing disabled soliders but the same points for disabiling enermy soliders as killing them would give while adding a bleed to death time for disabled soliders (e.g. 2 minutes)? This would change the game's tactics dramatically so that it would become advantageous to disable enermy soliders (by taking out their arms and legs) rather than killing them (as killing them would led to them respawning, giving them a chance to disable you) and so that soldiers will approach hostile flags cautiously and work together (as no one wants to be out of the game for ~2 minutes).

Edit: Also, I think that if this is done grenades blast radiuses should be made more realistic as there will be less of an incentive to use them as while they will clear an area, using them when capturing a flag would make your life much much more difficult as you will have mutiple enermy soliders spawning at the same time in various spawn points.