Weapons - Differences

[Bob_Marley]

Thunder']i cant find much info on the 7.62 round to back this up, but im sure a 7.62 can go through a brick wall at a 1mile.

its reliablity is the cause of its lack of accuracy, all the parts are losely fitting meaning it can be full of sand/mud/water and keep firing, but the parts aint as well machined as the nato rifle, but the soviets didnt care their doctrine was to pull up in a apc and hose the area down with 7.62 rounds as that much lead could only be a good thing.

i watch alot of programs about weapon systems, and alot of time these programs contridict each other its hard to build up a accurate picture of these weapon with out using them

You're thinking of 7.62x51 NATO, not the 7.62x39 Wasaw Pact used in the AK-47/AK-47M/AKM. The NATO is essentially a shortend .30-06 round with a more pointed bullet and better propellants and so is simply a full power rifle round. The WP on the other hand is an intermediate cartrage. It is much less pointed and hasnt got nearly as much propellant. At short ranges, such as those encounted in Veitnam it will out perform the M16 on penetration easily, however, due to is heavy weight and short cartrage, it has a very parabolic trajectory at longer ranges making it usuitable for anything over 300m, this reflects the original design peramiters as a very powerful SMG, not an assault rifle.

Also, against modern body armour the 7.62x39 lacks penetration. This was demonstated in the battle of Falluja when insurgent forces armed with various kinds of AKs had to ambush the attacking US marines to attempt to get a face shot, because other wise, chances are that the marine will survie. Then again, if you can lay your hands on the 193 grain AP ammo, it'll punch trough most body armour on the 2nd shot.

And if you really want to see scary bullet effets, you want to see .223 M193 ammo fired through a 1:14 twist barrel. Its stupidly inaccurate, but when it hits it'll tear limbs off.

Remember - You can kill nearly anything with an AK-47 but almost nothing can kill an AK-47!

[the.ultimate.maverick]

Just to jump in - remember it isn't just calibre that effects penetration, simply the shape of the round, and is speed have a major effect also

[Thunder]

hey bob marley, thanks for clearing that up

i understand that the NATO and russian rounds where different but thought the damage would be simular.

[Garack]

e-Gor']The reason we haven't posted is not that we don't wish to divulge it, but rather that it takes a long time to compile the information, and we've got more important things to do at the moment, with getting 0.31 out. I may get round to doing something like that in the future, but if not, everything's there in the objects_server.zip

A lot of it though, is down to the weapon and how you use it rather than specific figures. For example, I'll always find the m4 more accurate than the ak101, since I find it a lot easier to aim with the red dot scope than iron sights, regardless of which is technically more accurate.

Ok, i do not thought that this costs time. i thought the weopon coder has s simple liste vith values that he had changed.

I will take a look in the objects_server.zip. Do it need an hex editor ?

[Garack]

Edit: So heres what i found:

AK47:
ObjectTemplate.minDamage 0.2
ObjectTemplate.damage 34
ObjectTemplate.DistToStartLoseDamage 250
ObjectTemplate.DistToMinDamage 750


M16A2:
ObjectTemplate.minDamage 0.2
ObjectTemplate.damage 32
ObjectTemplate.DistToStartLoseDamage 275
ObjectTemplate.DistToMinDamage 875

What does it mean ? An AK Bullet makes min.damge (0.2) when you are 750 metres or more way?

An what is "DistToStartLoseDamage"- At this point the damage (32) is going less ?

[Harmless_Mad_Man]

Oh one thing I forgot. The reason AK rounds trash you so utterly completly if they penetrate is, when they enter the body instead of travelling straight through, they spin! Just like the old Lee Enfield 7.62 WW1 bullets did. Leaving a huge gaping whole where bits of you should be.... An M16 round will go straight through. Especially if armour piercing bullets are used. It was a problem in Mogadishu... Read the book the Rangers complain about it alot. They kept getting up after being shot!
Zombies! :O

[[k]MuffinMaster]

They ALL spin... just the way they travel through the tissue until they spin is different.
Some bullets start to spin after 10 cm of tissue... some first after 20 cm..
so they basically left the body already.

Read Fackler's article on gunshot-wound-ballistics.

Link: http://www.fen-net.de/~na1723/army/wound.html

[OriginalSnoozer]

Oh one thing I forgot. The reason AK rounds trash you so utterly completly if they penetrate is, when they enter the body instead of travelling straight through, they spin! Just like the old Lee Enfield 7.62 WW1 bullets did. Leaving a huge gaping whole where bits of you should be.... An M16 round will go straight through. Especially if armour piercing bullets are used. It was a problem in Mogadishu... Read the book the Rangers complain about it alot. They kept getting up after being shot!
Zombies! :O

What book are you referring to? Sounds like a good reading.

[the.ultimate.maverick]

Oh one thing I forgot. The reason AK rounds trash you so utterly completly if they penetrate is, when they enter the body instead of travelling straight through, they spin! Just like the old Lee Enfield 7.62 WW1 bullets did. Leaving a huge gaping whole where bits of you should be.... An M16 round will go straight through. Especially if armour piercing bullets are used. It was a problem in Mogadishu... Read the book the Rangers complain about it alot. They kept getting up after being shot!
Zombies! :O

To link to anothe thread - this is why the XM8 was taken out of development (principally), it had a shorter barrel than the M4 and packed 5.56 ammo - this was already being shown as ineffective in Iraq. The military simply didn't want another 5.56 weapon.

[e-Gor]

Erm, all rifle bullets spin. That's what makes it a rifle instead of a carbine.

Garack: Yes, that's exactly what those mean. Using that comparison, it means that it'll take 3 AK shots, but 4 M16 shots to the body to kill (do 100 damage). To look at accuracy, look at the ObjectTemplate.deviation lines. FireDev, TurnDev, and minDev all do as you'd expect. MiscDev is for jumping. devMod is a multiplier - so for example when prone with the m16 you're just over twice as accurate as when standing. There are all sorts of other factors that affect how good a weapon is, like recoil, bullet velocity, and the amount you can zoom in. All of them are fairly easy to find in the .tweak file though. You see now why it would be a long task comparing all the weapons?

[Bob_Marley]

To link to anothe thread - this is why the XM8 was taken out of development (principally), it had a shorter barrel than the M4 and packed 5.56 ammo - this was already being shown as ineffective in Iraq. The military simply didn't want another 5.56 weapon.

Yes, but if the US military adopted blended metal ammunition, like they should have a long time ago, there wouldnt be that problem.

The XM8 was taken out because Colt got in a huff and convinced the US army that A) Everything that isnt M16 shaped is rubbish. and B) Hold a new contest so we can win, or we'll sue.

[A.J.Sawyer]

I thought Lee Enfield Was .303 not 7.62

[Bob_Marley]

I thought Lee Enfield Was .303 not 7.62

It is. But people get confused becuase .303 (7.7mm) british is bigger than .308 winchester (7.62x51mm NATO). This is becuase they needed to give the new cartrage a name that wouldnt be confused with the old ones so they couldnt call it the .30 or .300 so it got an imperial name that didnt actually express it's true callibre.

[Garack]

e-Gor']Erm, all rifle bullets spin. That's what makes it a rifle instead of a carbine.

Garack: Yes, that's exactly what those mean. Using that comparison, it means that it'll take 3 AK shots, but 4 M16 shots to the body to kill (do 100 damage). To look at accuracy, look at the ObjectTemplate.deviation lines. FireDev, TurnDev, and minDev all do as you'd expect. MiscDev is for jumping. devMod is a multiplier - so for example when prone with the m16 you're just over twice as accurate as when standing. There are all sorts of other factors that affect how good a weapon is, like recoil, bullet velocity, and the amount you can zoom in. All of them are fairly easy to find in the .tweak file though. You see now why it would be a long task comparing all the weapons?

Perfect! Big Thanks, but only two Questions left:

What does it mean ? An AK Bullet makes min.damge (0.2) when you are 750 metres or more way?

An what is "DistToStartLoseDamage"- At this point the damage (32) is going less ?

[the.ultimate.maverick]

Yes, but if the US military adopted blended metal ammunition, like they should have a long time ago, there wouldnt be that problem.

The XM8 was taken out because Colt got in a huff and convinced the US army that A) Everything that isnt M16 shaped is rubbish. and B) Hold a new contest so we can win, or we'll sue.

Possibly - but I think that whatever the reason was, the decision was the right one. I love some of the XM8 features but in that wanted/needed.

[e-Gor]

Garack: Yes, I believe that's correct. Seeing as BF2 maps are relatively small, and the view distances are no where near 750m (probably more like 350-450 on most maps, at a guess), that's fine - you'll never have an AK doing that little damage. It'll start losing damage at the DistToStartLoseDamage - this is because the bullet would in real life be slowing down over distance.

[OiSkout]

e-Gor']Erm, all rifle bullets spin. That's what makes it a rifle instead of a carbine.

Um, I thought carbines had rifling as well?

Unless you're talkin about smoothbore muskets!

[Major Ursa Norte]

e-Gor']Erm, all rifle bullets spin. That's what makes it a rifle instead of a carbine.

Please don't take offense, but I must offer some clarification. A carbine is simply a short barrelled rifle. For a projectile NOT to spin, it would have to be fired from a smoothebore barrell, like a shotgun or musket. Rifling in a barrell causes the round to begin a spin, once leaving the barrell, bullet design and powder charge determine how stable the flight path will be. Matching a rifle's twist rate with the proper powder charge/bullet design is every handloader's "Holy Grail".

[tophdawg]

well i think if your using a full auto gun try shooting bursts of 5 bullets, also i useally got support and go pron and use it for mowing people down or surprestion fire.

[Garack]

e-Gor']Garack: Yes, I believe that's correct. Seeing as BF2 maps are relatively small, and the view distances are no where near 750m (probably more like 350-450 on most maps, at a guess), that's fine - you'll never have an AK doing that little damage. It'll start losing damage at the DistToStartLoseDamage - this is because the bullet would in real life be slowing down over distance.

Thanks@E-Gor!

Great Community Support as we all know°!