|-I've seen similar suggestions but...-|

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-06-01 16:34

British Army, 5 years in the paras, 3 years in Ireland and then 5 years in active combat.

Your sig is too big btw. Way too big, a DEV will remove it if not shrunk

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-06-01 16:35

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote: As far as gun recoil goes, velocity does play a role in determining the amount you will feel in weapon but not as much as MASS does.

And from the previous page:

I'll repeat it, it's not the caliber alone that determines kick, its the length (& Width) of the shell casing (Longer shell casing more gunpowder in it) that creates the kick.

Mind making up a coherent opinion and sticking to it ?

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 16:36

You know nothing about munitions/ballistics do you.....calibre is the diametre of the inside of the barrel, and thus the diameter of the widest point of the bullet. It is not its weight or mass - you can have a round of the same calibre but different mass. And don't try and make me sound - it never works[/QUOTE wrote:
Since when do average soldiers receive bullets of different grain weights? It's perfectly fine to assume the type of bullet a weapon will fire based on it's caliber.

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 16:39

Burning Mustache wrote:And from the previous page:

Mind making up a coherent opinion and sticking to it ?

Both are accurate measures for determining recoil.

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-06-01 16:47

Sig still too big and now its on!

Different weapons have different barrel twists. M16A2 has 1:12": M249 has 1:7". This has a direct effect upon the ammunition that is suitable for that weapon, regardless of a shared calibre. And this is why the M249 uses the 5.56 Penetrator (M855 - 62gr) and the M16 uses the Ball (M193 - 55gr) They are different in size and mass

Post by **Wraith** » 2006-06-01 16:51

Spank Him again Mav and tell him to get back on subject....

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 17:01

the.ultimate.maverick wrote:Sig still too big and now its on!

Different weapons have different barrel twists. M16A2 has 1:12": M249 has 1:7". This has a direct effect upon the ammunition that is suitable for that weapon, regardless of a shared calibre. And this is why the M249 uses the 5.56 Penetrator (M855 - 62gr) and the M16 uses the Ball (M193 - 55gr) They are different in size and mass

You're talking about different weapons. Since when does a soldier carry a different grained bullet for his m-16? You're talking about a machine gun VS an assault rifle. I thought this argument was about assault rifle VS assault rifle? In my experience I have only switched around grain sizes for two reasons: When i'm shooting at long ranges (300-500 yards) = smaller grain, shooting at close targets (<200) but need maximum damage = large grain.

Touche, they are the same caliber, but not the same weapon.

*Sigh, you British. The same people who brought us Operation Market Garden.

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-06-01 17:04

Yes well done your comment was 'since when do soldiers carry round of same calibre and different grain' well right there they do - a unit will carry both penetrator and ball ammo - tracers have a different weight too and would also be used in M249s.

And my point was that rounds of different mass and same calibre exist which you suggested didn't.

You got whipped so just be a good boy about it.

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 17:09

the.ultimate.maverick wrote:Yes well done your comment was 'since when do soldiers carry round of same calibre and different grain' well right there they do - a unit will carry both penetrator and ball ammo - tracers have a different weight too and would also be used in M249s.

And my point was that rounds of different mass and same calibre exist which you suggested didn't.

You got whipped so just be a good boy about it.

Yeah, yeah, so I did. But an individual soldier does not worry about grain sizes. I know plenty of jarheads, they carry one type of bullet.

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-06-01 17:11

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:Yeah, yeah, so I did. But an individual soldier does not worry about grain sizes. I know plenty of jarheads, they carry one type of bullet.

Yep well when designing a MOD you have to consider the difference in grain....and this is a suggestion thread (getting us back on point!)

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 17:13

the.ultimate.maverick wrote:Yep well when designing a MOD you have to consider the difference in grain....and this is a suggestion thread (getting us back on point!)

So look at my original suggestion and post what you think.

Better to just go out and shoot the guns if you want to determine recoil.

Post by **Wraith** » 2006-06-01 18:00

I think the weopons in game are fine except for the PLA Sniper rifle wich is at best "wonky"

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-06-01 18:05

All PLA and MEC weapons need a rework...

tophdawg · Post by **tophdawg** » 2006-06-01 18:24

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote:So look at my original suggestion and post what you think.

Better to just go out and shoot the guns if you want to determine recoil.

It's wheird how you think that pr is done wrong with recoil and telling them to shoot them. a lot of these guys are in the military or served so i think they would have a good idea and you seem to be hating against the british which does have a top notch army. i find that the devs did a good job on the mini mod which is fun cause people actually work as a team. Plus bf2 engine is kinda limited in some ways to make it realistic especially when ea keeps adding un realistic things like vehicle drops.

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 19:00

tophdawg wrote:It's wheird how you think that pr is done wrong with recoil and telling them to shoot them. a lot of these guys are in the military or served so i think they would have a good idea and you seem to be hating against the british which does have a top notch army. i find that the devs did a good job on the mini mod which is fun cause people actually work as a team. Plus bf2 engine is kinda limited in some ways to make it realistic especially when ea keeps adding un realistic things like vehicle drops.

I don't hate the British army. Just a little bit teasing on my part at them, guess I get it from my fellow soldiers here in the US.

While this mod did an outstanding job at changing the "feel" of the game. I simply feel there is room for improvement on weapon behaviour in this game.

BTW, did you know that it's rumored a Canadian sniper recently broke the longest sniper kill on record. He must have been a hunter!

Major Ursa Norte · Post by **Major Ursa Norte** » 2006-06-01 19:04

Recoil is way to nebulous to try and code "realistically". Too many factors. Ammunition, weapon weight, stock configuration, breech operation (gas vs. spring), size of the individual pulling the trigger, stance of shooter and even an individual's recoil sensetivity. You just can't code all of that into a game.

A fine real world example:

I am an avid hunter and when I go into the woods to hunt whitetail deer, I take a Thompson Center Contender Carbine in .375 Win. caliber. The carbine has a short 21" barrell and is outfitted with composite stocks and topped with a 1.5 x 5 Leoupold varix III scope. This is a single shot weapon. When I pull the trigger, the barrell jumps to the sky and my shoulder feels like a mule kicked me. Ofcourse, you never feel this when dropping the hammer on a deer, only after the shot. In any event, that weapon kicks.

I also have a Winchester model 1894 BIG BORE chabered in .375 Win. This is a longer barrelled (24") with a full length magazine tube underneath, with hardwood stocks. This rifle is also a lever action. Much heavier. When I shoot it, I can shot, cycle the lever and shoot again all while holding on the target. Same ammunition.

Why so big of a difference? Lots of facotrs like weight of weapon, length of barrell, stock design and stance (scope vs. open sights) when shooting.

recoil is subjective and therefore impossible to code.

Post by **Wraith** » 2006-06-01 19:06

un realistic things like vehicle drops.

That isn't realistic? J/K
I think that the only thing that should be dropped is RIB's and then a C-130 should swoop down and it should slide out of the back into the water near by.

STEALING WRAITHS IDEAS WILL RESULT IN PUBLIC HUMILIATION IN THE SHOUT BOX... I CAN DO IT, I'M THE SPAM GOD.

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-06-01 19:22

Major Ursa Norte wrote:Recoil is way to nebulous to try and code "realistically". Too many factors. Ammunition, weapon weight, stock configuration, breech operation (gas vs. spring), size of the individual pulling the trigger, stance of shooter and even an individual's recoil sensetivity. You just can't code all of that into a game.

A fine real world example:

I am an avid hunter and when I go into the woods to hunt whitetail deer, I take a Thompson Center Contender Carbine in .375 Win. caliber. The carbine has a short 21" barrell and is outfitted with composite stocks and topped with a 1.5 x 5 Leoupold varix III scope. This is a single shot weapon. When I pull the trigger, the barrell jumps to the sky and my shoulder feels like a mule kicked me. Ofcourse, you never feel this when dropping the hammer on a deer, only after the shot. In any event, that weapon kicks.

I also have a Winchester model 1894 BIG BORE chabered in .375 Win. This is a longer barrelled (24") with a full length magazine tube underneath, with hardwood stocks. This rifle is also a lever action. Much heavier. When I shoot it, I can shot, cycle the lever and shoot again all while holding on the target. Same ammunition.

Why so big of a difference? Lots of facotrs like weight of weapon, length of barrell, stock design and stance (scope vs. open sights) when shooting.

recoil is subjective and therefore impossible to code.

10-4. What you said man. So what do we do about recoil? Do we just ask people who have fired the weapons? Recoil has to be dealt with some how....

six7 · Post by **six7** » 2006-06-01 20:57

'[R-DEV wrote:Wraith']

STEALING WRAITHS IDEAS WILL RESULT IN PUBLIC HUMILIATION IN THE SHOUT BOX... I CAN DO IT, I'M THE SPAM GOD.

Spam god? please....

Who is #1?

Tinkerbell · Post by **Tinkerbell** » 2006-06-01 21:01

<<SpanishSurfer>> wrote: <snip>

In PRMM, the weapon that is shown for the the Chinese forces is the AK-47 (Wood stock). The MEC it's the AK-101(Plastic stock). Maybe they should BOTH have the AK-47? If not, then the AK-101 could have the exact same values in the game as the M-16. The AK-47 could be done as discussed in first post.

... And the type of furnature on the gun means what, exactly?

The AK-74 series, (essentially the AK-101, but in a better calibre (yegads! i insulted 5.56 NATO!)) is available with wooden furnature, some people even prefer it, as its more comfortable, or aesthetically pleasing, or, if the SHTF, they can use it as a club without fear of it shattering (M15 anyone?)

And, the earlier AKM is available with poly furnature.

you appear to be facing your facts that the AK-101 is only different because of its different furnature and calibre. not true.

the AK-101 is different from the AK-47 in the following ways:

Poly magazines vs. Steel
stamped receiver vs. milled
side folding buttstock vs. solid (or underfolding, in the case of AK-47S)
5.56 NATO vs. 7.62 Soviet
different pistol grips
muzzle break vs. thread protector
blackened bolt vs. unfinished silver bolt.
unvented foregrips vs. vented...

i could go on if you really wanted, but i think i'll leave it there.