Civillians to kill or not to kill?

[Rudd]

in my opinion, 3 civilians in 5 minutes is a LOT. i wouldn't be able to kill more than 3 in 5 minutes even if i looked for them.

more like 3 civilians during a whole round, or you'll get kicked, just like you get kicked for teamkills.

I gave it some leeway because there are 2 kinds of civi

Civis that want you to kill them

and Civis that don't want you to kill them

if your server has many of 1) rather than 2) 1 or 2 civikills are bound to happen.

[McBumLuv]

in my opinion, 3 civilians in 5 minutes is a LOT. i wouldn't be able to kill more than 3 in 5 minutes even if i looked for them.

more like 3 civilians during a whole round, or you'll get kicked, just like you get kicked for teamkills.

Hmmm, I dunno, there are accidents, as you say, with grenades.

My thinking, though, is that civilians should never be out of the ROE. No one should ever be able to shoot them, because they don't ever pose as a threat to the troops. After that, there should only be a few circumstances where arrests are even allowed.

I think having it announced as [offender's name] Has killed a civilian, [civilian's name], with [weapon/vehicle].

That does 2 things discouraging civilian kills:
1) Increases guilt factor.
2) Allows for better administrating of server, and review of bans/kicks/w.e.

Then, have different punishments per kill. 1st kill is always possibly accidental, and should thus get the benefit of doubt. However, it could still have been avoided, so they get the kill announced and have their score zeroed, as well as spawn time increased to 2 minutes (not very noticeable, as we've seen, but it's just for the first kill, and is enough of a deterrent for that).

2nd kill, if done within 5 minutes of the first, is instantly courtmartialled, with a spawn time of 5 minutes. If not within the 5 minutes, has the same effect as the first kill.

3rd kill after no matter how many minutes is also an instant courtmartial with 5 minutes spawn time if in the same life, or 2 minute spawn time if not (IE, you could have killed two civis, died, and then killed another one and get only 2 minute spawn time, or you kill three in one life and get a 5 minute spawn).

Any others are the same as number 3. You are really doing something bad if you've killed even three civilians in a game. Especially as armour, I've seen so many gung-ho crewmen hit buildings with civilians in them. It's not a necessary evil, though, as I've crewed in a CR2 on Basrah with Cheditor and Space and none of us ever hit any civilians (and to be fair, we were often confronted by them, even with known combatants behind them).

[hiberNative]

I gave it some leeway because there are 2 kinds of civi

Civis that want you to kill them

and Civis that don't want you to kill them

if your server has many of 1) rather than 2) 1 or 2 civikills are bound to happen.

i don't understand blufor that can't restrain themselves from shooting a civilian standing on a roof. is it hard to just let him stand on that roof? why do you have to shoot him?

maybe he's letting his squad know your location?

maybe he is just looking at you?

either way you "can't" shoot him. how about you follow the rules of the game. nobody likes a 2 minute respawn.
*rage*

[Rudd]

i don't understand blufor that can't restrain themselves from shooting a civilian standing on a roof. is it hard to just let him stand on that roof? why do you have to shoot him?

maybe he's letting his squad know your location?

maybe he is just looking at you?

either way you "can't" shoot him. how about you follow the rules of the game. nobody likes a 2 minute respawn.
*rage*

neither can I

I'm talking about the civis that run intentionally in to your fire

[hiberNative]

neither can I

I'm talking about the civis that run intentionally in to your fire

what, like you are behind and ar and lighting up a corner that you saw an insurgent running behind, and then a collaborator runs out and you kill him?
has never happened to me.

[Rudd]

I mean times like when you are a AT or a APC firing at windows or whatever, not doing anything to that civilian who's standing there off to the side, sometimes they litterally run to where your firing in order to force you to kill them

its a left over mentality from .75 when civi kills resulted in ticket loss

[McBumLuv]

I mean times like when you are a AT or a APC firing at windows or whatever, not doing anything to that civilian who's standing there off to the side, sometimes they litterally run to where your firing in order to force you to kill them

its a left over mentality from .75 when civi kills resulted in ticket loss

I don't see it anymore, though civilians will be in buildings with enemy combatants. In any case, if it's like that, just don't fire AT/HE into the building, you have .50/coax/small arms to target them precisely.

[IAJTHOMAS]

Is there any way of putting some in the 'critically wounded' state rather than outright death?

That way you could have:

1. Warning
2. Crit wounded state
3. Insta death

as a tiered punishment system.

[mat552]

it should be something like, "you are allowed 3 civils per 5mins"

I've rarely (two games I can think of) shoot any more than 3 in a round, simply because after one, possibly two of them dead, they figure out that it's not smart to stick your head out in front of that particular base entrance.

i don't understand blufor that can't restrain themselves from shooting a civilian standing on a roof. is it hard to just let him stand on that roof? why do you have to shoot him?

maybe he's letting his squad know your location?

Then his squad (possibly his whole team) knows my location, and bluefor may take a hit in the tickets department. Not a good idea. It's a very unsettling feeling to see someone just staring at you, and never a good thing.

However the only real time I'd see one standing on a building is out in the field, and then I'm just libel to throw a smoke grenade up there to ruin his line of sight. No reason to shoot them out in the field.

[Mongolian_dude]

I recommend is people start using 'warning shots'.
You can use it to check if someone is a civi, or even if you cant identify weather they are friend or foe in conventional battles.

...mongol...

[BlackwaterSaxon]

Civilians are flawed anyway, civilian collaborators in the real world have the chance that they may just be someone going about their daily business to keep the Blufor in check. In PR, we know that civilians are up to something sinister.

In all honesty. it seems like a waste of a slot for an army so inadequate anyway. Unneeded innovation in an area of the game that needs more time focused on the current **** classes rather than trying to perfect this civilian class that requires too much effort with no gain in terms of gameplay.

[McBumLuv]

Civilians are flawed anyway, civilian collaborators in the real world have the chance that they may just be someone going about their daily business to keep the Blufor in check. In PR, we know that civilians are up to something sinister.

In all honesty. it seems like a waste of a slot for an army so inadequate anyway. Unneeded innovation in an area of the game that needs more time focused on the current **** classes rather than trying to perfect this civilian class that requires too much effort with no gain in terms of gameplay.

I completely disagree, the civilian is what's meant to but the Coalition in check. The only thing is it's broken.

Most insurgent classes aren't bad, they are meant to be underpowered and use the element of surprise. It's simply that they are not complemented by the fact that the Coalition needs to check fire because civilians are so sparsely found, and when they are the punishments are insufficient in their deaths.

I'd rather have a team of insurgents of which a quarter are civilians and the Coalition checks their fire, rather than a completely armed insurgent team against a run-and-gun Coalition side.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

I completely disagree, the civilian is what's meant to but the Coalition in check. The only thing is it's broken.

Most insurgent classes aren't bad, they are meant to be underpowered and use the element of surprise. It's simply that they are not complemented by the fact that the Coalition needs to check fire because civilians are so sparsely found, and when they are the punishments are insufficient in their deaths.

I'd rather have a team of insurgents of which a quarter are civilians and the Coalition checks their fire, rather than a completely armed insurgent team against a run-and-gun Coalition side.

Civilians worked, at least in servers I was in, back when they were introduced last year, only problem we had were people using them as human shields. the class is seriously flawed as it is, it's an unarmed medic class basically. and I never see run and gun tactics used by the Coalition, what I see is the coalition camping back with their scoped rifles and taking out insurgents that present themselves. The only time an insurgent becomes a moderate threat is when they steal a coalition rifle.

[McBumLuv]

Civilians worked, at least in servers I was in, back when they were introduced last year, only problem we had were people using them as human shields. the class is seriously flawed as it is, it's an unarmed medic class basically. and I never see run and gun tactics used by the Coalition, what I see is the coalition camping back with their scoped rifles and taking out insurgents that present themselves. The only time an insurgent becomes a moderate threat is when they steal a coalition rifle.

Not run and gun in the context of other FPSs, but yes in the fact that I see many APCs and IFVs and tanks firing HE into buildings with either know civilian locations or without checking fire, infantry that shoots first, and checks fire later, and pretty much what disregarding them. I saw an APC first hand hitting a building filled with only civilians...

It's true the Civilian has been Fubared, now, and it had it's problems previously, it doesn't mean that it can't be fixed. It's just people think any change will lead back to the initial problems, which weren't even as bad as the current ones imo.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

Not run and gun in the context of other FPSs, but yes in the fact that I see many APCs and IFVs and tanks firing HE into buildings with either know civilian locations or without checking fire, infantry that shoots first, and checks fire later, and pretty much what disregarding them. I saw an APC first hand hitting a building filled with only civilians...

It's true the Civilian has been Fubared, now, and it had it's problems previously, it doesn't mean that it can't be fixed. It's just people think any change will lead back to the initial problems, which weren't even as bad as the current ones imo.

APCs do that on every map. Gotta love those two person APCs that refuse to provide transport because they're too busy blowing shit up.

[molotov everything]

I'd rather have the "human_shield" civs that existed in.75 than the useless ones we have now. After all insurgents do use civilians as human shields so to speak. Insurgency mode nowadays feels to much liks AAS.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

I'd rather have the "human_shield" civs that existed in.75 than the useless ones we have now. After all insurgents do use civilians as human shields so to speak. Insurgency mode nowadays feels to much liks AAS.

AAS with one side severely overpowered. I never see the blufor disconnect from an insurgency game, yet loads of people disconnect when they find themselves on the insurgency side.

[Doedel]

I agree. Civies back when they were introduced were much more useful than they are now. They could spot targets for their whole team to see (now only SLs can do it, and only if they have a competent commander), serve as human shields, and generally caused havoc.

Is it possible to "rollback" intelligence if civies are killed? Ie, have identified weapons caches return to being hidden? And what happened to civies calling in mortar strikes?

[Spec]

Thats another thing. I'd take away their weapons (mortar cellphone and rocks). These just give the coalition a reason to shoot at them. They can spot and have someone else call in the mortar strike when it's safe, and the rocks are just a "shoot at me"-item. Rather give them some other, non-combat-toys that could come in handy, or do something in relation to the new insurgent-commander-informant-things (like, if a civilian is close to a marker, already 5 enemies are enough to be spotted, if it's two civilians, then 4 soldiers are enough to trigger the alarm and so on).

[VapoMan]

People saying its better to kill them because they'll tell their squad where you are

Well in real life if you saw a civillian u'd just kill them, because the might be giving the enemy intel?

You are fighting FOR the civillians, so they can be free of insurgent terrorists.

So either ignore those attenition seekers, or wait for them to make a mistake and arrest their ***!