Separating the Civilian from the Collaborator

[snooggums]

I have seen the changes that the team has made to the Insurgents that have changed the kit from unarmed Civilians roaming in herds for a laugh to a kit that no one wants to play because it punishes the user instead of the enemy when the Collaborator is killed. I believe the solution is to split the kit concepts and equip them as below. This change would still give the feeling of insurgency and reduce the smacktardery as noted below.

Civilian pickup kit

Equipment:
hands (unarmed)
binoculars
rocks
grapple
4 bandages

This kit would have a normal spawn time if shot/blown up etc, but would have a 2 min spawn if arrested. The rocks are left in to taunt the enemy, since they do no real damage they can simply be ignored. The ROE for Civilians would be that they could be run over with vehicles or arrested/shot with breaching shotgun at any time. In addition Civilians could also be killed without punishing BluFor if within 30m of a cache or Insurgent player that is not also a civilian within the last minute. As a pickup kit the civilian would be able to be killed without penalty if wounded within 1 minute of picking up the kit. If killed outside of the ROE the BluFor loses 10 intel points, the shooter would be instantly slain (for one ticket) and the shooter's spawn time would be 2 minutes for that death. Additionally a message would post to the team that the player killed a civilian. The kit would have the ability to run and swim as normal forces do. This kit is intended to actually scout ahead, away from friendly forces and avoid arrest.

Optimally this would be a pickup kit from main and therefore could be restricted to 2 available at one time. Otherwise it would be best to limit it to one per squad like the Medic for BluFor. The Civilian would not be able to place hideouts or call mortar strikes, they are restricted to their equipment list.

Collaborator limited kit

Equipment:
hands
shovel
binoculars
rocks
moltov (1)
grapple
medic bag
ammo bag (1)
cell phone for mortars

The collaborator would be the actual assistant to Insurgents, with the ability to heal and rearm other players. This kit would have the one moltov to harass or cover an escape, but would otherwise be unable to defend themselves (rocks don't count). This kit would have the same movement and swimming restrictions as it does now. Collaborators would be able to be killed at will, but they would look the same as Civilians to make it difficult to distinguish between the two, you would only know by observing their behavior. Alternately a small difference (moltov in back pocket, Civilians could get their running shes back or something else only seen up close) could be done so if you are close enough you would know they are not a Civilian. The Collaborator would have the same movement and swimming restrictions as they do now, and would have a 2 min respawn if arrested/shot with breaching gun. Otherwise they would have the normal spawn time for an Insurgent if killed. If a squad leader is the Collaborator they would be able to build hideouts/call in mortars as they do now.

Collaborators would be limited to one per squad like the Medic.

The benefits of this split (as long as the Civilian is limited to two per team):

-Any group of civilian looking players with more than 3 members will have at least one collaborator and therefore will be able to be shot, so goodbye civi/collaborator herds. one per squad would also make the herds unlikely and the destroyed cities we fight in shouldn't have large amounts of civilian/collaborator types anyway.
-The within 30m +1 minute of Insurgents will get rid of players acting as human shields.
-The 30m +1 minute for caches will get rid of punishments for killing civilians that are in the same buildings as caches.
-Collaborators will actually need to help their team to survive instead of wandering off since their abilities make them targets.
-Civilians will need to stay away from friendly forces and actually do some spotting.
-The trade of offensive weapon for support abilities for the Collaborator means the Insurgents can fight away from their caches but not at the same level as BluFor. This will help players who would normally stay at a cache to reload and give it away can actually move from the cache and do something useful as a team.
-Sometimes Collaborators are killed now because they can call mortar strikes, this setup makes it so the Civilians truly unable to hurt the BluFor and therefore can be ignored.
-The low number of Civilians and only a point being lost for killing them means that one player can't kill a herd of them to screw over his team.
-The Civilian bandages are in case they get falling damage, since they are supposed to operate away from friendlies and caches they should have a few in case of accidental enemy fire. I would not have an issue with 1 or no bandages either.
-A swimming Civilian poses no threat, so it does not matter if they hide out from shore until a shotgun can dispatch them. Likewise a civilian should be able to avoid authorities, hence their ability to run like BluFor.

And this would separate Civilian (non-combatant informant) from the Collaborator (aggressive non-soldier)

[McBumLuv]

I like the Kit load outs, but not the ROEs.

Civilians shouldn't even be arrested unless they have used their rocks, or when they are found within 10 meters of an insurgent within the last minute, perhaps making them suspicious.

Collaborators shouldn't be shot unless they've used their molotovs or ammo bags within the last 3 minutes, but otherwise everything else they are capable of doing wouldn't seem to pose any immediate life threat to any Coalition soldiers, but they could be arrested if they use their Binos, Cell Phone, shovel, or medic bag.

O, and reduce the spawn time drastically, I don't care if there may be a few small side effects, it's still way better than punishing players for the Coalition's run-and-gun attitude.

[Garmax]

how would you distinguish between the 2?

[snooggums]

how would you distinguish between the 2?

Alternately a small difference (moltov in back pocket, Civilians could get their running shoes back or something else only seen up close) could be done so if you are close enough you would know they are not a Civilian.

Minor differences, I would want them to be hard to tell apart at range.

[Anderson29]

look if u lower the civi spawn time they will come at the coalition troops in herds running circles around them in the middle of a firefight trying to get shot on purpose... which is unrealistic and is what happened in.75 and thus why it was changed. even if the kit is limited it will still happen.......

edit: thought
i have been thinking about this a little...what if there was some code added to where if a civi is shot with his hands raised and has not helped the insurgents in the already established time frame....that player who shot him would be instantly killed with already implemented punishments, and the whole team and maybe even the whole server would know that "player A" shot Innocent civilian "player B". civi still has long spawntime so that its not abused...but this IMO would be nice.

[wookimonsta]

instantly killing the people who kill a civilian with his hands raised isnt the idea either.
i've sat in an apc firing into a house that had the cache in it. inside there were 3 rpgs that were trying to fire out at us, and a civilian suddenly popped up in front of the window with his hands up. i shot him by accident as i had been firing at that very window, but what was i supposed to do? if i had died immediatly, it would've meant that the apc would've had no gunner and the team no cover.

[AnimalMother.]

I like the Kit load outs, but not the ROEs.

Civilians shouldn't even be arrested unless they have used their rocks, or when they are found within 10 meters of an insurgent within the last minute, perhaps making them suspicious.

Collaborators shouldn't be shot unless they've used their molotovs or ammo bags within the last 3 minutes, but otherwise everything else they are capable of doing wouldn't seem to pose any immediate life threat to any Coalition soldiers, but they could be arrested if they use their Binos, Cell Phone, shovel, or medic bag.

O, and reduce the spawn time drastically, I don't care if there may be a few small side effects, it's still way better than punishing players for the Coalition's run-and-gun attitude.

those ROEs are pefect im[flashylights]o[/flashylights], it made me laugh when a guy could run up to a civilian who'd done nothing punch them and the civilian gets the punishment for doing nothing.


good suggestion overall, with a messages like "PLAYER1 has weakened the populations support" for co-alition and "PLAYER1 has been abusing our people! fight back stronger" for ins would make insurgency gameplay rather interesting.

[Rudd]

I support this suggestion, as long as the civilian kills are met with major punishment when not in the situations you have suggested.

Though I stil think 3civis per 5mins is a nice comfortable penalty box that would promote realistic gaming without getting in your face.

[wookimonsta]

well, this is probably WAY out there, and i mean WAY. but aren't they working on something where the commander can sort of buy assets?
wouldn't this also make sense in the insurgency mode, that each time a civilian is killed outside the ROE the commander gets more points to buy things ( a la support of the locals to get more stuff)

[myles]

The civis have to have a big spawn time because if they have a small one theyll just be trying to get shot and killed by blufor so theyl lose tickets and Ip but if they have a big spawn time pepol wont be bothred to do this.

[McBumLuv]

those ROEs are pefect im[flashylights]o[/flashylights], it made me laugh when a guy could run up to a civilian who'd done nothing punch them and the civilian gets the punishment for doing nothing.

Yar, but it'd still be like that, but why is every one so intent on being able to dispose of civilians in some way or another or of eliminating civilian "herds" ?

1) If everyone on the enemy team is a civilian, then you should be happy! They are already far more underpowered, so look at what this'll mean.
2) Everyone's under the impression that they should be able to arrest civilians at any time, and shoot them on some occassions, but that shouldn't be. The ROEs should NEVER allow shooting a civi, and arrests should only be made in suspicious activity (1 minute after having used the rocks, first aid, cellphone, or binoculars).
3) Even if you can't ever shoot a civilian, and don't get the chance to arrest him, SO WHAT? What is he going to do to you? He could walk upto and beside you, even, and not do anything suspicious/endagering to you.

Adapt to the new situations, evolve your tactics, and think. If anything's typical FPS, it's the thought that everything should be able to be killed, and these are simply exemplifying that.

[snooggums]

look if u lower the civi spawn time they will come at the coalition troops in herds running circles around them in the middle of a firefight trying to get shot on purpose... which is unrealistic and is what happened in.75 and thus why it was changed. even if the kit is limited it will still happen.......

In my example there would only be 2 or up to 9 total civilians on the team. I'd prefer just the two. If so, then any squad of civi looking guys over 3 total are going to be valid ROE an can be killed (max 2 civis and a collaborator).

instantly killing the people who kill a civilian with his hands raised isnt the idea either.
i've sat in an apc firing into a house that had the cache in it. inside there were 3 rpgs that were trying to fire out at us, and a civilian suddenly popped up in front of the window with his hands up. i shot him by accident as i had been firing at that very window, but what was i supposed to do? if i had died immediatly, it would've meant that the apc would've had no gunner and the team no cover.

In the suggestion that civi would be a fair target because they would be within 30m of a cache or another Insurgent and be a valid target. The only time you wold die as a vehicle gunner is when you shoot a lone civi with no other valid targets (which encourages fire discipline).

[snooggums]

Yar, but it'd still be like that, but why is every one so intent on being able to dispose of civilians in some way or another or of eliminating civilian "herds" ?

1) If everyone on the enemy team is a civilian, then you should be happy! They are already far more underpowered, so look at what this'll mean.
2) Everyone's under the impression that they should be able to arrest civilians at any time, and shoot them on some occassions, but that shouldn't be. The ROEs should NEVER allow shooting a civi, and arrests should only be made in suspicious activity (1 minute after having used the rocks, first aid, cellphone, or binoculars).
3) Even if you can't ever shoot a civilian, and don't get the chance to arrest him, SO WHAT? What is he going to do to you? He could walk upto and beside you, even, and not do anything suspicious/endagering to you.

Adapt to the new situations, evolve your tactics, and think. If anything's typical FPS, it's the thought that everything should be able to be killed, and these are simply exemplifying that.

Making the ROEs allow shooting a civilian takes care of the silly human shield usage and killing a civi you can't see with explosives when you are trying to kill a real insurgent. With those ROEs in place the shooter should be highly punished for shooting a civi outside ROE.

[McBumLuv]

Making the ROEs allow shooting a civilian takes care of the silly human shield usage and killing a civi you can't see with explosives when you are trying to kill a real insurgent. With those ROEs in place the shooter should be highly punished for shooting a civi outside ROE.

No, they don't. I have yet to see civilians taking out their medic bags while running around 3 meters from an insurgent. Wanna take care of human shields? Do so:

1) Make it so they are never out of the ROEs, and can never be shot without prevention.
2) If they are shot within 3 meters of an insurgent, the colaition still gets it's punishment, but this time the civi gets the current default timer (120 seconds, whilst if they weren't doing that, they'd only have the ~30 second timer).

Done. And guess what? The kit is also playable, and ROEs make sense, and solving the problem actually solves it, rather than making matters worse.

[snooggums]

No, they don't. I have yet to see civilians taking out their medic bags while running around 3 meters from an insurgent. Wanna take care of human shields? Do so:

1) Make it so they are never out of the ROEs, and can never be shot without prevention.
2) If they are shot within 3 meters of an insurgent, the colaition still gets it's punishment, but this time the civi gets the current default timer (120 seconds, whilst if they weren't doing that, they'd only have the ~30 second timer).

Done. And guess what? The kit is also playable, and ROEs make sense, and solving the problem actually solves it, rather than making matters worse.

I'm talking about the ROE's from my first post, which does not have anything to do with the medic bag, instead it uses the distance to another insurgent or cache. A civi by himself would have a big punishment but a civi who is sticking around insurgents would be a fair target since it's too hard to tell them from a collaborator, and gets rid of the civi trying to block the enemy as a human shield (since there's no reason to shoot near a civi unless there is an enemy behind him because they pose no threat).

If you make it so the civi cannot ever be shot without punishing BluFor they will just be human shields again, which the Dev's don't want. Giving them a 2 minute timer and also punish the enemy still makes them worth being human shields. If they gain zero benefit from being a shield the behavior will stop.

[McBumLuv]

No, because the only time they are ever used as human shields is when they are within 3-5 meters of an insurgent, and if they are such they will be punished, but it doesn't matter if they are being used as human shields, you should still get the punishments. But they won't get the human shields, because as we've seen from the lack of civilians, having even a 120 second spawn time really detracts from playing as an unarmed player.

When has it ever been excusable for the coalition to shoot civilians? Even when they may be used as human shields (which happens alot it would seem in real life) they are never justified. WHy should it be ingame that it's allowed? It would just happen so very rarely since if they open fire it'll be a lose-lose situation. But then again... How has an unarmed civilian guarding (and giving the position away of) an insurgent armed with far worse weaponry for the most part stand up against entire squads with high quality kits, and huge support?

That's all I dislike about the suggestion, the ROEs. Not that I disagree that civilians shouldn't be punished for dying as human shields, but I believe that making it 1 minute within 30 meters of a cache or insurgent detracts from the purpose.

[myles]

Good suggestion i like the way the collaberter kinda feels more like one of the insurgents and i love the way u have a proper civi whos kinda neutral but i think the proper whopper civi should not be able to get areested or ran over or shot in a car (if hes on his own) i think the blufor should just have to think thats a civi dont kill him or arrest him at all.

[USMCMIDN]

I like the Kit load outs, but not the ROEs.

Civilians shouldn't even be arrested unless they have used their rocks, or when they are found within 10 meters of an insurgent within the last minute, perhaps making them suspicious.

Collaborators shouldn't be shot unless they've used their molotovs or ammo bags within the last 3 minutes, but otherwise everything else they are capable of doing wouldn't seem to pose any immediate life threat to any Coalition soldiers, but they could be arrested if they use their Binos, Cell Phone, shovel, or medic bag.

O, and reduce the spawn time drastically, I don't care if there may be a few small side effects, it's still way better than punishing players for the Coalition's run-and-gun attitude.

Great idea but also know in real life civilians in hot zones are arrested or apprehended by all nato forces to safely get them out of a hot zone and to ensure civilian safety and troop safety I.e if a "civilian" had a weapon and the coalition forces were to try to get him out w/o cuffing him that "civilian" can cause harm to those same coalition troops that are trying to help.

[***LeGeNDK1LLER***]

i guess is a great idea man,sound good.