Weapons - Differences

[e-Gor]

OK, Guess I was wrong about that then! Dunno, just picked it up from somewhere. Anyway, my point was trying to correct someone who was implying that only some rifle rounds spin and that they spin after impact.

[Garack]

Upsa one Question left.

I can see no differneces between light and heavy soldiers( e.g.Medic/assault)

Heres a heavy soldier:

rem ---BeginComp:Armor ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent Armor
ObjectTemplate.armor.maxHitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.hitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckhitpoints 320
ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 24
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMod 25
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMax 1000
ObjectTemplate.armor.TimeToStayAsWreck 6
ObjectTemplate.armor.timeToStayafterDestroyed 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.angleMod 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMod 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMax 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileCriticalDamage 0.20
ObjectTemplate.armor.criticalDamage 40
rem ---EndComp ---


And heres a light soldier:

rem ---BeginComp:Armor ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent Armor
ObjectTemplate.armor.maxHitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 24
ObjectTemplate.armor.hitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckhitpoints 320
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMod 25
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMax 1000
ObjectTemplate.armor.TimeToStayAsWreck 6
ObjectTemplate.armor.timeToStayafterDestroyed 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.angleMod 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMod 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMax 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileCriticalDamage 0.20
ObjectTemplate.armor.criticalDamage 40
rem ---EndComp ---

No differences ?

[Major Ursa Norte]

NP Egor. Projectiles spinning after impact boils down to type of projectile and residual energy after impact.

[Major Ursa Norte]

Upsa one Question left.

I can see no differneces between light and heavy soldiers( e.g.Medic/assault)

Heres a heavy soldier:

rem ---BeginComp:Armor ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent Armor
ObjectTemplate.armor.maxHitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.hitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckhitpoints 320
ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 24
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMod 25
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMax 1000
ObjectTemplate.armor.TimeToStayAsWreck 6
ObjectTemplate.armor.timeToStayafterDestroyed 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.angleMod 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMod 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMax 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileCriticalDamage 0.20
ObjectTemplate.armor.criticalDamage 40
rem ---EndComp ---


And heres a light soldier:

rem ---BeginComp:Armor ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent Armor
ObjectTemplate.armor.maxHitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 24
ObjectTemplate.armor.hitPoints 100
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckhitpoints 320
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMod 25
ObjectTemplate.armor.explosionForceMax 1000
ObjectTemplate.armor.TimeToStayAsWreck 6
ObjectTemplate.armor.timeToStayafterDestroyed 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.angleMod 1
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMod 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.wreckExplosionForceMax 0
ObjectTemplate.armor.hpLostWhileCriticalDamage 0.20
ObjectTemplate.armor.criticalDamage 40
rem ---EndComp ---

No differences ?

I will take your word for it. Computer code looks like Chinese to me. The reason may be arbitrary to the original code writing team since both soldiers are using a 5.56mm standard round. The coders most likely did not give any weight to weapon type.

[e-Gor]

Heavy soldiers have a different material on their torso, that isn't hurt as much by bullets. (Since the model has a bulletproof jacket). If you really want to compare them, you'll need to look in the materials files, which get a bit confusing at times.

[Garack]

e-Gor']Heavy soldiers have a different material on their torso, that isn't hurt as much by bullets. (Since the model has a bulletproof jacket). If you really want to compare them, you'll need to look in the materials files, which get a bit confusing at times.

ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 24

Its the same..

[Harmless_Mad_Man]

e-Gor']Erm, all rifle bullets spin. That's what makes it a rifle instead of a carbine.

Garack: Yes, that's exactly what those mean. Using that comparison, it means that it'll take 3 AK shots, but 4 M16 shots to the body to kill (do 100 damage). To look at accuracy, look at the ObjectTemplate.deviation lines. FireDev, TurnDev, and minDev all do as you'd expect. MiscDev is for jumping. devMod is a multiplier - so for example when prone with the m16 you're just over twice as accurate as when standing. There are all sorts of other factors that affect how good a weapon is, like recoil, bullet velocity, and the amount you can zoom in. All of them are fairly easy to find in the .tweak file though. You see now why it would be a long task comparing all the weapons?

Hmm spin is the wrong word. Tumble as in it no longer travels pointy end first through you. It tumbles around.... Hard to describe
I've seen a graphic of it somewhere. It was on a program about the m16 vs Ak.... but either way being shot is bad for your health

[Thunder]

quote:
originally posted by DocNartman:

quote:
originally posted by Londo_Mollari:
You can have all stopping power in the world but if you can't hit your target, it's irrelevant. The M16's strength is that it fires accurately and has tumbling rounds. Its tumbling rounds make it particularly lethal when striking a target. Modern bullet design works on many different factors – but the key to stopping power is having the bullet transfer its energy to the subject. If the AK were to fire and completely penetrate the enemy (unless it hits a vital) – it would have failed in its purpose. You want the energy to be completely displaced within the target. The M16s design allows the round hit and “tumble” within the target destroying more than just the entry point and hopefully expend the energy fully within the subject.

There is no question that AKs are good guns. They are. But, there are several manufacturers of them and they aren't all good. So, like the M16 it depends on the generation and manufacturer. My understanding is that the current generation of M16s are not prone to weapon malfunctions like their early counterparts. AKs are like most weapons - you have to look at the environment and the situation to determine if the weapon is optimal for a role. Stopping power (or penetrating power) isn’t always preferred.


In regards to the tumbling effect, the lethality of the 5.56mm NATO round is not due to its "stopping power" in terms of how hard it hits. But it is the resultant trauma that insues due to its deviations in its trajectory and fragmentation in the body. Many bullets tumble when they enter substances such as ballistic gel, including the the 7.62x39 of the AK-47. It just happens that the fragment.

AK-74


M16A2


AK47


In reality, the best bullet to kill someone in terms of physiological damage would be the 5.56mm NATO, under the right conditions that is. 7.62mm has less change of deforming upon impact, which makes it more consistantly lethal in terms of penetration of level I-II body armor, and people. The 5.56mm is a good round, but could be better, since it does not fragment all the time, nor does tumbling create such a tremendous effect that you are describe, all the time. This is why the Army has been looking into adopting 6.8mm rounds, which retain the small size compared to 7.62 but is more effective than the 5.56mm.

In a nutshell, the amount of trauma may or may not translate to "stopping power". It really all comes down to where you hit the person, the range, and the angle which you hit the person at. Not to mention any other obstacles that get in the way such as body armor, bone, organs, and other tissue. There's no denying the 5.56mm NATO is a good round, but your facts are misguided. A person being hit in the chest by the 7.62 is going to be stopped just like a person being hit with a 5.56.

The M16A2/A4 are still prone to jamming. The root cause for it to jam is due to the gas return blowing gas into the face of the bolts locking mechanism. The main reasin why there have been less jams are mainly because of how often soldiers are taught to clean their weapon, and to some extent, the adoption of the bolt assist, new barrel (compared to the original M16), and less fowling powder. But these factors are meaningless without proper cleaning. If the M16A2 or A4 was used the way it was when it was first issued in Vietnam, it would jam at the same frequency, under those conditions.

This is why the HK "M4" is far less prone to jamming, because they did away with the original gas blow back for a system more similar to the XM8.

Really, where do people get all this knowledge..that the M16 round is the one that tumbles compared to everything else...geez.

posted here military.com forums

[e-Gor]

ObjectTemplate.armor.defaultMaterial 24

Its the same..

"default" being the important word there.

Look down a bit further, and you see in the us_heavy_soldier.tweak "ObjectTemplate.setSkeletonCollisionBone spine2 23 0/-0.05/-0.03 0.15 -0.16". The 23 there is the material ID. (the rest is position and other info.) The us_light_soldier has material 24 there, which is hurt more by bullets.

[six7]

e-Gor']"default" being the important word there.

Look down a bit further, and you see in the us_heavy_soldier.tweak "ObjectTemplate.setSkeletonCollisionBone spine2 23 0/-0.05/-0.03 0.15 -0.16". The 23 there is the material ID. (the rest is position and other info.) The us_light_soldier has material 24 there, which is hurt more by bullets.

all soldiers need armour, at least for the USMC, maybe short the long range snipers (DMs need armour as well). I think the HP for all soldiers should be the same, whether you increase the light soldiers or decrease the heavy soldiers (the 2nd would be better for gameplay, IMO).

[ghosty]

When we were working with the SF they were using M-4's 223. The team medic said he saw a guy get hit in the shoulder and it tumbled through his body and exited below his knee... wow.

[Garack]

OK, thanks!

[duckhunt]

Yea that happens, I know of a guy getting shot in the knee, deflecting of the bone, travelling up the inside of his leg and blowing his balls off. yea....

[trogdor1289]

ouch is all I have to say to that. And store some sperm before joining up just in case.

[Braddock096]

That isn't a new phenomenon. It happened much more before we stated using the modern "bullet". Back in the day the only projectile was a sphere of lead which had much more "travel" than the modern projectile. The Viscount Lord Admiral Nelson for instance was shot in the shoulder with a projectile that exited via his hip. Nice.