Complete civilian ROE revamp

[McBumLuv]

if you are sitting in an apc and see a building with 3 rpgs, you open up since letting them take aim is usually fatal. now if when i open up on that building hit a collaborator that is sitting around inside, then i shouldn't get punished should I?

You don't need to fire HE into the building. If you even suspect that there are unarmed players there, use your coax, it's there for a reason. RPGs can be hard to fire, and though they can aim at you and duck to settle the deviation, if you keep the suppressed and move around abit, they won't be able to track you.

Also, you can use range to your advantage. If you're around 200 meters out, they won't be hitting you if you keep them suppressed.

[[EC]DR.NOobFragger]

One important thing that civies need changed is their sprint. Since chasing them almost always leads to a trap, they should either be slower or have less sprint. Maybe like when they use their medic bag, it drains their stamina also. But most of the stuff you suggested is just too harsh on the blufor. I see civies try and jump on nades and be human shields all the time. With the changes you suggested I am sure I would see more of this. I agree with wookie, If I see a house with RPG's sticking out of it, I am going to pummel it with HE rounds regardless if there are civies in it or not. Better them than me.

[snooggums]

DR.NOobFragger;1105846']One important thing that civies need changed is their sprint. Since chasing them almost always leads to a trap, they should either be slower or have less sprint.

They already have less sprint.

[[EC]DR.NOobFragger]

They already have less sprint.

Yeah, but its not enough, they can still run away and lead you too a trap. In all the time I have ever playing insurgency (since .5) I have maybe arrested 10-15 civies.

[Jazz]

I'd agree to that if you take away the medipack and epipens. Then give him 5 or so patches. The notion of an untouchable revive guy is kind of silly.

[badmojo420]

Good suggestions McLuv, i hope it becomes a reality. I really like the never allowed to be shot part.

[GreedoNeverShot]

Any person who heals insurgents, throws rocks at me, calls in mortar strikes on my buddies, and informs on me to the enemy, harbors insurgents, and tries to lead me into traps I would shoot in a heartbeat.
This doesn't address the running into enemy fire problem. 3 meters is nothing, and there will probably still be human shields.

False arrests are also a bad idea. They can walk over to our base, and can just roam freely? They could tell their entire team where our soldiers are, with no repercussions. They could walk into squads rallies freely, and noobs would be annoying as hell, and there would be nothing the coalition could do about it. Civis don't just walk up to US troops randomly without some stern words from troops.

I think the class should be abolished and the parts of the kit should be distributed amongst other kits.

Give the insurgents a medic and call it a day.

+1... but no epipens for the insurgent medic.

[Threedroogs]

collaborators get way less sprint, noobfragger. that definitely shouldnt be lowered, in my opinion.

i wonder if it's possible to force someone's spawn back to the main base. if you kill a collaborator outside the ROE, you get a longer spawntime and are forced to spawn at the mainbase on your next death (or when court martialed). that would certainly add to the punishment in most circumstances.

<edit> just reread the first post and i had missed something. i still think more insurgents should get hooks, though.

it would be interesting to have two classes, actual civis and collaborators. kill a civi and you're in for a horrible penalty...maybe 60 seconds added to your spawntime for each respawn for the rest of the map.

i love the feeling of having to check targets in insurgency mode, although more tweaking is definitely needed. the class should definitely NOT be scrapped for this one reason. i think the devs took a big step forward from .8 to .85.

[badmojo420]

They can walk over to our base, and can just roam freely? They could tell their entire team where our soldiers are, with no repercussions. They could walk into squads rallies freely,

Those all sound like realistic things that could happen in the real world. So why not PR? The biggest hassle with fighting an insurgency is how the enemy mixes in with the civilian population. It forces the coalition troops to be careful about who they fire upon. They watch people, observe their actions and determine if that person is an enemy or just a civilian wondering around in a war zone.

In PR currently, no matter what actions the civilian is performing, he can be arrested on sight. With that, the whole idea of civilian, unarmed collaborator, etc goes out the window. You might as well give him a gun with no ammo. He is a target, that is to be taken down with less than lethal force. No thinking or observing is required on the part of the coalition. It's a very gamey part of the insurgency game mode.

Your comment about a collaborator approaching coalition troops is valid. But the problem is if a rule was put in, that any collaborator within 5m of a coalition troop is a valid and open target. Can you guess what will happen? Coalition troops will be running down any collaborator they see, getting within 5m, then boom headshot.

I don't think the suggestions McLuv are suggesting will make the system perfect and un-exploitable, but they're much better than the current system we have.

[GreedoNeverShot]

How is some random civilian running up to a US firebase and base realistic? They just don't say "Oh come on in!". You run up to US soldiers in a combat area without complying with them, and you will be SOS or arrested.

Civilians running around in the city, fine.

Civilians running and messing with US patrols and running up to restricted areas like US bases... NO. You know that will happen, and there will be nothing the US can do about it. Big bonus for US is that when nobody is around they can pop out their cellphone, call in a mortar, and switch back to unarmed and the US will still be under the impression they cant shoot him.

If there is a civilian running towards your FOB, how are you supposed to be telepathic and determine whether or not you can arrest him?

[badmojo420]

Coalition main bases have a dome of death, so there will be no civilians running around in a military base.

Maybe civilians should be arrested if they're within 20m of a firebase. But, even without that, whats the worst a civie could do to your firebase? Tell his friends? Watch where people run to? Stand in front of the HMG?

You're making a big deal out of nothing.

[[EC]DR.NOobFragger]

I think some people are forgetting they aren't civilians, they are collaborators. That means they are working with the enemy so you can arrest them and interrogate them since they are out running around with a squad of insurgents.

[badmojo420]

Some people are forgetting that? Maybe. Me personally? No, i keep that in mind at all times. It doesn't change the fact that a collaborator cannot be easily identified just by looking at him. It's his actions that decide his true nature. Something the current system lacks.

[[EC]DR.NOobFragger]

Some people are forgetting that? Maybe. Me personally? No, i keep that in mind at all times. It doesn't change the fact that a collaborator cannot be easily identified just by looking at him. It's his actions that decide his true nature. Something the current system lacks.

If they don't want to be considered suspicious they shouldn't be hanging around a squad of Insurgent wielding AK-47s. If they don't want to be blow up by a tank or APC round they shouldn't be hanging around RPG guys. IRL you would be able to see a medic bag and grappling hook hanging off of them and I guarantee if a soldier saw that in Iraq they would stop them and ask questions, restraining them can be considered the same thing. Since in PR you cannot make AI civilians walking around to differentiate the two, we could just assume all the regular civies are hiding inside their house's because they see Insurgent and Blufor troops moving around en masse. So if you saw a civilian like the above described you would stop him and ask questions.

[badmojo420]

DR.NOobFragger;1106139']If they don't want to be considered suspicious they shouldn't be hanging around a squad of Insurgent wielding AK-47s. If they don't want to be blow up by a tank or APC round they shouldn't be hanging around RPG guys. IRL you would be able to see a medic bag and grappling hook hanging off of them and I guarantee if a soldier saw that in Iraq they would stop them and ask questions, restraining them can be considered the same thing. Since in PR you cannot make AI civilians walking around to differentiate the two, we could just assume all the regular civies are hiding inside their house's because they see Insurgent and Blufor troops moving around en masse. So if you saw a civilian like the above described you would stop him and ask questions.

Did you not just summarize the system McLuv wants? If they don't want to be considered suspicious, they stay away from insurgents and stay unarmed. If they use their items or help insurgents, they can be arrested.

The whole point of an unarmed collaborator is to blend in with the rest of the civies. Their equipment wouldn't be hanging off their belt for the whole world to see. It's only when they do anything suspicious that they should be stopped and questioned.

[Tirak]

IMHO, the civi needs to go back to the way they were back in .75. Take away the medi bag, give his spawn time a reduction to 15-20 seconds and put in all the coalition punishments that used to be in place. Back in .75 you did not shoot civies. You went way the hell out of your way to avoid shooting civis. Why? Because you knew that your next spawn time would see a massive increase, and theirs would be over faster than normal. Did you on occasion make a judgment call to take them out knowing the penalty? Yes. Is that judgment call realistic? Yes. Were there obvious exploits in the system through Human Shields? Of course, but the Human shields never were half as broken as the class is now. You want players to treat civis the "right way"? Fine, make the benefits obvious and simple, don't go through convoluted rules systems that only work some of the time. Context sensitive ROEs, moral questions about the civi being a target or not, trying to make the civi a medic, all of these things don't work, in my opinion. Put it the way it was back in .75 and you'll see those realistic judgment calls about whether or not it's worth it to kill that civi on the roof 'cause he's looking at you with his binos. Put it the way it was back in .75 and you'll see the kit being used properly again. Put it the way it was back in .75 and you'll see coalition soldiers thinking before shooting, as the class was meant to be to begin with.

[Trooper909]

There's a reason that the so-called civilian is on the opposing side, because it is the enemy. The "civilian" misnomer should never have been applied to that class to begin with. He is no longer a civilian, he is a an unarmed combatant supporting the insurgents.

sooo point of the class mr advisor man?so what he is is the same as all other insurgents classes just unarmed?if that what is intended than i say delete it all together as no one will ever pick it
just give us a medic with a musket or somthing or a bluderbus.

Is a game after all and having a healbot with no weapons,extra long spawntime,etc is a class that only a fool would play because none of the above is fun is pointless and just taking up space were a better class could go.

i quote you because you have the only post that carries weight and reflecs what the makers of this game want to do with the class and how i discriped it is exactly how the class is even now and i cant think of one person who could say im wrong tbh.

[Qaiex]

There's a reason that the so-called civilian is on the opposing side, because it is the enemy. The "civilian" misnomer should never have been applied to that class to begin with. He is no longer a civilian, he is a an unarmed combatant supporting the insurgents.

Maybe.. But the laws of war clearly state that under no circumstances are soldiers allowed to shoot unarmed people, even if they are enemy combatants.
As soon as someone doesn't carry a firearm, they're no longer a valid target.

[wookimonsta]

Maybe.. But the laws of war clearly state that under no circumstances are soldiers allowed to shoot unarmed people, even if they are enemy combatants.
As soon as someone doesn't carry a firearm, they're no longer a valid target.

laws of war? do you mean the geneva convention?

[Taliban-IED]

Well, I can't exactly say civilian ROE changes haven't been suggested before, but I would like to start by saying that though I've alluded to this suggestion in previous related threads, there has never been any discussion or much response in relationship to them. Add to that the fact that using the search function has not revealed any matches, I'll begin.

The civilian/collaborator class has been an extreme in PR for a few builds. Going from the extremely notable cannon fodder of 0.75 to the extremely rare and punishing kit of 0.8-0.86. So, I'd like to suggest completely revamping the ROEs to a playable middle ground where the civilian is played properly, if played at all.

My ROE would be as follows:


1. Civilians will never be allowed to be shot. Shooting a civilian will never be allowable within the ROEs of the coalition, under any circumstance (IE, no slugshots, either).
2. Coalition will receive an updated punishment system, including:

• Every time they kill a civilian, their name is displayed in the top left in a similar fashion to the "Player_name destroyed his own cache and is a traitor"
• Any civilian kill ups your respawn by 60 seconds.
• Your second consecutive civilian kill within a life leads to a court martial (with the added spawn time of both kills)
• After the third kill in a game, player's score is reset (like in 0.85), and another court martial.

3. If a civilian is killed within 3 meters of any insurgent, then the civilian will be punished with an extra 120 seconds.
4. Civilians are no longer able to be arrested on a whim. The only time an arrest will be allowable is within 180 seconds of:

• Pulling out their rocks/cellphone.
• Being within 10 meters of an insurgent
• Being within 10 meters of a weapons cache.

5. Civilians arrested "legally" will receive another 60 seconds on their respawn.
6. Coalition troops will loose one intelligence point for false arrests, but will only be punished with an extra 30 seconds to their spawn time.
7. Civilian normal respawn time will be reduced to 30 seconds.



That's pretty much it. Now, to back it up before people start denouncing the entire suggestion over iddy-biddy points. Most of it can be tweaked, but overall it should stay the same. Anyways, here's my explanation for each point:

#1: Pretty much summed up, shooting any unarmed civilian is never justified, and should never go unpunished.
#2: Slightly more direct punishments than previously, including the text message. The first kill's punishment is relatively light and not too apparent, but it's a slightly more lenient punishment.
#3: Duh, no more human shield problems. No, you'll still be punished for shoting them, but they'll be punished a whole lot more.
#4: Civilians are never a direct threat to you, but if it is perceived that they are doing suspicious activities or may indirectly be a threat to you (rocks/cellphones), then you'll have the opportunity to catch them and arrest them.
#5: Punishment for being caught on the civilian's part, meaning they'll no longer be giving free intel like supposedly in 0.75.
#6: Not really severe, in all honesty, but this represents the Coalition loosing civilian trust, as well as being reprimanded for doing so.
#7: Without the problems of human shields being formed subsiding due to my previous points, civilians no longer need to be punished for using the kit.

Please post your comments/feedback of this, and remember that this is just a rough outline and any point can be changed if it's seen as beneficial to the overall suggestion, but I believe this will be a huge improvement in gameplay already..

nice idea