Civilians

[Dreadnought1984]

I've done some forum searching and I've come up short. There are tons of threads about how people think the civilian class should be, and there are tons of threads containing conflicting anecdotal evidence about current (.86) civilian ROE.

I want a concise explanation of the ROE. The manual's description is very vague. About 90% of the explanation of the civilian class is about punishments for breaking the ROE and about 10% actual ROE. This is all it says about when you are allowed to fire:

"Civilians may be run over with a vehicle or shot while using vehicles, ladders
or ropes without any penalty or bonus. There is also no penalty for shooting
them if they used a weapon, vehicle or their medical equipment in the last 60
seconds."

This leaves many questions.

1) I've heard rocks count as weapons and make them valid targets, I've also heard the opposite.

2) Lets say we defined what is meant by weapon... If you merely select a weapon, are they a valid target, or, like the manual says, you must use the weapon?

3)It says you are a valid target on ladders and ropes. I've heard you continue to be valid for 60 seconds after ladder or rope. Is this true? What if it's another person's rope?

4)I've heard binocs don't do anything, I've heard binocs merely selected make you a valid target while they are selected, I've heard binocs merely selected make you a valid target for 60 seconds, I've heard binocs used (zoomed in) make you a target while used, I've heard binocs used (zoomed in) make you a valid target for 60 seconds. These possibilities will be known as "everything" in other questions.

5)I've heard everything about arty cell phone.

6) I've heard everything about the grapple.

7) I know road kills are valid, but I've been told so are C4 and grenades. The only way you can break ROE is if you kill with a bullet. Is this true?

8 ) If you are wounded in one state (valid / non valid target) and eventually bleed out while in another state (valid / non valid target) Which state is the deciding state?


I would really like to avoid as much partial anecdotal evidence as possible. I've had plenty, "I've killed a civy doing X with no punishment!" without any info on what he did in the last 60 seconds. I actually don't believe people's memory is often detailed enough to remember if he laid down, maybe selected something, and got up again unarmed. I'd like to know how this is coded from someone who knows.

[Zrix]

Well, there is a new PR Guide coming out some time within the next millennium that will hopefully have pretty much everything covered in detail.

[Adriaan]

Some very good questions some of which i've asked myself many times as well. Hopefully the guide will cover this when it's done.

[Herbiie]

Erm... how abouts just don't shoot them?

[Mad-Mike]

I think if your a Civi and you get shot while on ladders or rope or using binocs etc..
the person that shot you should get atleast 3 minute spawn time,
Reality - rules of engagement

I wouldnt go afghan and randomly shoot at civi's and neither would anyone else so why do it on PR?

Leave Civi's alone *******

[Silly_Savage]

I'll try my best:

1. Rocks do not count as a weapon, even if they throw them at you. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

2. If you select a weapon, even without firing it, you are a target. You can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

3. If you get on any ladder, or a grapple, you are a valid target. You can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties. I believe the grapple is considered a "vehicle", which means that you can continue to be engaged 60 seconds after "getting out" of it. Although the ladder is not considered a "vehicle", you can still be killed while on it without the offender suffering any penalties. However, because it is not considered a "vehicle", once you get off of it, you, as a civilian, cannot be killed without the offender suffering penalties.

4. Binoculars do not count as a weapon, even if you are looking through them. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

5. Cell phones do not count as a weapon. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

6. As stated earlier, I believe the grapple is considered a "vehicle". Thus, you can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering any penalties. This includes the time you are on it and 60 seconds after getting off as well. If you merely have the grapple selected, this does not count as "entering a vehicle". You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

7. I do not believe you can engage civilians with explosives if they are outside the ROE without suffering the penalties. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

8. It all depends on the state in which you die. If you bleed out while you're still within the ROE, then there are no penalties for the offender. However, if you bleed out while outside of the ROE, then I believe there are penalties for the offender.

I'll try and be a bit more concise. The only times you can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering any penalties is when you, as a civilian: enter a vehicle/ladder/grapple (see #3 for more details), select/use/pickup any kind of weapon* (see above for items not considered "weapons"), get ran over by a vehicle, select/use any medical equipment* (medic bag/epipens), or are arrested (restrainer/shot with a shotgun using slugs).

* The same rules from the grappling hook apply to the medical equipment and weapons. That is, once you are done using them and switch items, you are still able to be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties 60 seconds after using them.

** If you pick up a different kit with a weapon in it, you are no longer considered a civilian and can be shot without the offender suffering the repercussions. If you switch to back to the civilian kit after having picked up another kit with a weapon, you must wait 60 seconds before you are deemed a "civilian". In those 60 seconds, you are within the ROE and can be killed without penalties.

I hope this answered some of your questions.

[McBumLuv]

And yet there are no perceptible penalties for shooting civilians. I've had reports that people don't even get the "you have shot a civilian" any more.

Civilians need a revamp, a punishment for Coalition, and a less punishing game for players trying to act as civilians. I mean half the time player civilians aren't even doing anything with/for the insurgents.

Going back to 0.75 would be a very easy thing to do, giving courtmartials, putting the name up in the sliding text like the traitor messages, and getting rid of ticket penalties.

While they had problems in 0.75, they weren't completely FUBAR, and the only ones complaining about them acting as human shields were the ones in armour firing at them with HEAT while there were civilians nearby.