Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

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0blivi0us
Posts: 93
Joined: 2009-04-24 12:28

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by 0blivi0us »

I love the proposal, espescially the Medical tent.

But i might just have to say no to the medevac.
People actually fighting on the battlefield is slim as it is. It'll eliminate a few more from the battle. The frontline changes a lot faster in PR believe then in real life. and getting a wounded to the medevac would take up much more time.
+ People tend to crash and burn lots of vital choppers >.>

Instead let's use the medical tents for an oppurtonity for something close to medevac. The tents would need a LOT of resupply. making the transport chopper a bit more important then before. Someone would regularly be flying in new supplies to a strategicly placed medical tent. For medics to resupply and for soldiers to heal up in a large struggle.


And you have to remember that Med-Evac on the field normally means that the soldier will be in the hospital for the next few months because he was shot in the stomach and was bleeding out :P
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Arnoldio
Posts: 4210
Joined: 2008-07-22 15:04

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Arnoldio »

Hmm, got me thinking how you could balance this medic system with respawns (so its not easier to just click give up and here we go again)

I was thinking about penalties for giving up. So, when you're crit wounded, you get the 5 min countdown started, closer to the end of it you give up, less respawn penalty you will get (wich builds up death after death...)
Lets say at 3 minutes you can respawn directly, with no penalties, those additional 2 minutes without penalty count as a sort of reward.

Current sistem is, more you kill, closer to default respawn time you are, amirite? So such system could be used on those penalties, but not according to kills, but the general score of the player (I know, I know, PR isnt about score, BUT, if you look at it, it makes sense, sqads on the frontline die often, but they gain kills and cap flags, thus get points, snipers are leet and uber, so they dont really need those points, for vehicles this doesnt apply as you actually die in the vehicle.

Also the team/squad who dies more is FORCED to retreat and organize defence to gain points back so they can attack and not suffer severe respawn penalties...

In short, sooner you give up, more time youll have to stare at the black screen of DEAD ^^, more work you do and not give up, shorter the respawn timer will be, as a reward.

I hope you get this, makes perfect sense to me :D
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goguapsy
Posts: 3688
Joined: 2009-06-06 19:12

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by goguapsy »

heres the error: why not bleed to death and spawn at rally than going all the way back to the base while risking assets?

ok, I always like to play realistic. I don't agree on suiciding everywhere you go. but i would suggest a MORE healing (at least 6) AND Medical Tents to be able to be built in FOBs. AND you would be PUNISHED for shooting a MediVac vehicle in AAS (insurgents can shoot whatever they want...) -> I believe thats what is written on the Laws of War. Someone check please?


OK, so Willkinson, your idea is sweet, just a few observations. I believe all of them should be implemented AT THE SAME TIME to avoid frustation.

btw, I think I played with you one round... do you remember me? Ods are you were the medic...
Guys, when a new player comes, just answer his question and go on your merry way, instead of going berserk! It's THAT simple! :D

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goguapsy
Posts: 3688
Joined: 2009-06-06 19:12

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by goguapsy »

ChizNizzle wrote:Current sistem is, more you kill, closer to default respawn time you are, amirite?
dont quote me on that, but probably not, since PR is focused LAST on killing.
Guys, when a new player comes, just answer his question and go on your merry way, instead of going berserk! It's THAT simple! :D

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Arnoldio
Posts: 4210
Joined: 2008-07-22 15:04

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Arnoldio »

Im not sure either, doesnt matter anyways, i just showed the example :D

When you revive a player, he spawns with what? like 20% of health? so you need 80 % to heal him...around 8-10 doses of those 80% should be in the medpack before it runs out of ammo...IMO
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Orgies beat masturbation hands down. - Staker
Wilkinson
Posts: 1916
Joined: 2008-08-18 21:55

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Wilkinson »

goguapsy wrote:dont quote me on that, but probably not, since PR is focused LAST on killing.
Yeah I am in OD-S. I do remember seeing you on Reality Teamwork?


ANYWAY. So far alot of great feedback. As we can see, the Medivac system is now trash. The Medical Tent Project may be a possiblity.

Things still on Discussion
  • Limiting the Medic Bag Ammo. Limit to up to 3 Guys Max heal before running out of ammo. Removing some Field Dressings from Medic.
  • Medical Tent. Full Medical Team is here. Walk in and be healed, FASTER and STRONGER Heal Points given.
New Possibilities:
  • Make the Medical Healing Sytem Slower via the Medical Bag.
  • EpiPens. Re-Named as morphene?
  • Medical Tent Positions. As of now, to be healed you must enter and Sit in the tent. At Base there will be six positions open. At an FOB, only 3 Spots will be available.
  • Deployed Medical Tent Limitations?

    Can we assume that after 13-15 Men, the Medical Tent would run out of Ammo. Thus being Empty. Similar to a Mounted Deployed MG?
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FauxShaux
Posts: 17
Joined: 2009-08-31 01:48

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by FauxShaux »

I'm guessing the MediVac is already out of the question, and I agree with that, so I'll focus on the other stuff.

I'm not a fan of the Medic Tent idea, especially if it has any kind of limitations. First of all, in a game balance perspective, if the only reason it exists is because you can run out of "ammo" in your medic bag then I think a medic resupply "tent" would be a better idea. I don't have a problem with the medic bag running out of "ammo," btw.

But in a realism sense, I disagree with the Medic tents outright. Think about it, in a case where you've got the tent at a forward position. Perhaps it's on Kashan, around the South Village, on the US side, and you've got MEC riflemen peppering you from the mountainside. You get hit, then rush over to the medic tent. Somehow there are imaginary surgeons inside there just bobbing along, healing people while bullets whizz by. After they've done some kind of surgery you're back on your feet in seconds, maybe minutes, ready to fight again.

It seems like an attempt at realism that will ultimately make the game feel unrealistic. If there are medical tents involved they realistically would only be placed at the main base so the doctors and surgeons are out of harm's way. In addition, it would take a while for you to have your "operation" completed and your player ready to get back to the battle.

And with all that you might as well institute the MediVac system, and well, it would just be the same thing as respawning.

And that's just it: what you're proposing is, in a way, emulated by the respawn system.
Wilkinson
Posts: 1916
Joined: 2008-08-18 21:55

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Wilkinson »

FauxShaux wrote:I'm guessing the MediVac is already out of the question, and I agree with that, so I'll focus on the other stuff.

I'm not a fan of the Medic Tent idea, especially if it has any kind of limitations. First of all, in a game balance perspective, if the only reason it exists is because you can run out of "ammo" in your medic bag then I think a medic resupply "tent" would be a better idea. I don't have a problem with the medic bag running out of "ammo," btw.

But in a realism sense, I disagree with the Medic tents outright. Think about it, in a case where you've got the tent at a forward position. Perhaps it's on Kashan, around the South Village, on the US side, and you've got MEC riflemen peppering you from the mountainside. You get hit, then rush over to the medic tent. Somehow there are imaginary surgeons inside there just bobbing along, healing people while bullets whizz by. After they've done some kind of surgery you're back on your feet in seconds, maybe minutes, ready to fight again.

It seems like an attempt at realism that will ultimately make the game feel unrealistic. If there are medical tents involved they realistically would only be placed at the main base so the doctors and surgeons are out of harm's way. In addition, it would take a while for you to have your "operation" completed and your player ready to get back to the battle.

And with all that you might as well institute the MediVac system, and well, it would just be the same thing as respawning.

And that's just it: what you're proposing is, in a way, emulated by the respawn system.
I understand Faux. Like If I were those MEC Soldiers, my goal would be to take down the Medical Tent. when the Deployed Version comes out. It would have the capability of going down just as well as a Deployed MG or Foxhole


For the Respawn time, I'm really thinking. because I personally like the Timers as it. but the reviving thing needs to be looked into more. The 1 Revival time works. but He shouldn't be able to go back into battle as he is revived.

My idea:

Start of life: If you are killed automatically by C4 or a Tank when your in a car, standard 45? Seconds.

If Revived: You got lucky and had a medic to pick you up. Healing time should be longer than before. If you are killed after Revival. It should be a flat 60 seconds.

If you go to the Medical Tent: If you are completely Healed from the Medical Tent. You should get an extra Revival. or 30 Second Respawn.
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FauxShaux
Posts: 17
Joined: 2009-08-31 01:48

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by FauxShaux »

The extra revival idea is good. The only problem would be that it'd only be useful if you could have a deployable medic tent, as opposed to having just one sitting back at home base. I still think a deployable one would look weird in the middle of a firefight. Perhaps it would make sense if there was some limitation where the surrounding area would have to be clear of enemies so that the doctors could be safely transported in.

The respawn timer stuff makes no difference to me.
Celestial1
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007-08-07 19:14

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Celestial1 »

Wilkinson wrote:Limiting the Medic Bag Ammo. Limit to up to 3 Guys Max heal before running out of ammo. Removing some Field Dressings from Medic.
Should the medic be able to heal them fully?
What is the incentive to use the Medical Tent, if you can heal up most of your squad before running out, and then you can get ammo from a rifleman or from a nearby supply crate, which would basically be a 'one man medical tent' since he could just heal them all while sitting next to an ammo source.
Should he be able to heal them just until they would stop bleeding?
This might provide an incentive to go to a medical tent, but only when there is a break in the action. If you get shot, and then you are revived and healed, but you don't have to worry about bleeding out unless you get shot again, so why would you risk your squad's ability by having to run on foot to the nearest tent? Once the battle was over, you would then leisurely make your way back to the tent as a squad and heal up once the battle is over.
Should he be only able to heal enough to keep them alive but bleeding as he escorts them back to a tent?
If this is the case, a casualty on the battlefield will become a very serious issue, since the soldier would be much less able to fight back against the enemy, since he would be tethered to a medic to keep him alive. This is good, because it means that until the soldier is fully functional again he is much less able to fight back, which means a squad that has one man injured is a half of a rifle less powerful (the wounded may be able to shoot back, but he's likely going to have to stay down for most of the time and be healed by the medic). This is bad, though, depending on how the medic bag actually manages to heal him without raising his health above the bleed level; If it just heals slow enough to counteract the bleed, then what will happen when the squad has two wounded? The medic will simply be unable to keep both of them alive and will literally have to leave one of them to die while he keeps the other one stable. If it heals only to a certain point (say, 70%) he can be a little more combat effective, which is a good thing for the squad. The medic will have to juggle his casualties to keep them all stable, which could make or break the medic system, depending on how difficult it ends up being for a medic to keep his team functioning in a firefight.
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Limiting it's 'amount' of supplies is unsettling to me.
If the medic can heal a number soldier fully, he only needs to make sure to get ammunition every once in a while (like epipens; how often do you find your medic running out of epipens? yes, it does happen, but if you really do pay attention to your squad and have access to supplies it generally doesn't happen).
If the medic can heal a soldier just past bleed, it ends up being just the same as the above.
If the medic can only keep soldiers 'stable' until they get to a medical tent, then limiting his supplies too short will cause a very bad situation for a squad, where the medic runs out of supplies after a time, and then has to try to rush his squad to fall back immediately so that the wounded of the squad don't bleed out before they can make it back to a medic tent.

(For all of the above, assume that there is no incentive to respawn over being healed. This way we can examine the system itself, then build on it and alter it or the respawn system to mesh together better. Establish the foundation, then build upon it.)

Medical Tent. Full Medical Team is here. Walk in and be healed, FASTER and STRONGER Heal Points given.
If there is only one at main, then medivac would become more commonplace.
If they are firebase deployable, then a squad that is too far into the fight from a firebase, or the team simply didn't establish good firebases, the entire team could be crippled if there would be no way to heal fully (if medics could only heal enough to keep them alive, but still bleeding).

Because of this fact, I would recommend having them available (at main, perhaps at firebases), but not making them necessary to heal fully; otherwise, certain more 'realistic' implementations of the medic healing system would be very much undesirable due to having to hope that a firebase is nearby, or a vehicle can come pick them up quickly, etc.
Make the Medical Healing Sytem Slower via the Medical Bag.
Depends on the healing system implemented, really.
EpiPens. Re-Named as morphene?
IMO, renaming it is unrealistic in a way. A critically wounded person as portrayed in game is likely very hurt and cannot make use of their body due to the injury; the epinephrine is an adrenaline shot that would re-start their motor skills, in a way, making them able to walk and move about.

The morphine would be more of something that the medic uses from the medic bag, since it would stop the pain and allow the medic to patch his wounds. (If the medic bag had an opening animation when it begun to heal, then it could probably have a morphine dose as well as gauze, saline, OPA tubes, and even materials for a splint visible)

The way I see it, both morphene and the epipen would be used; but the epi-pen makes sense as the 'defibs' and the morphine makes sense as part of the 'bag'.
Medical Tent Positions. As of now, to be healed you must enter and Sit in the tent. At Base there will be six positions open. At an FOB, only 3 Spots will be available.
No real objections to this, I guess... Might be best to make the main tent 8 spots as opposed to 6, so there is less of a chance for someone to be forced to wait outside and bleed out because an entire squad of people needed to use the tent; it's not likely to happen, of course, but if it did, it would really suck, so it'd be better to avoid it altogether.
Deployed Medical Tent Limitations?
Can we assume that after 13-15 Men, the Medical Tent would run out of Ammo. Thus being Empty. Similar to a Mounted Deployed MG?
I'm not sure whether it could be assigned an amount of 'ammo' for the tent...
If it did, it would be kind of like shooting the missiles from an AA launcher... you use it up, then it becomes useless, so you just throw an incendiary on it, and rebuild it, giving it ammo again.
If you go to the Medical Tent: If you are completely Healed from the Medical Tent. You should get an extra Revival
A good idea to make the medical tents used properly; however, this removes the need for a player to stay out of battle for the 60 seconds of instant death after being treated by a medic. Perhaps it's not necessary to have in the first place, but having a system in place to replicate it while still giving this idea in place would be alright, I guess.





Again, I'm all for the idea of making the system more indepth, but there is just so much that has to be accounted for to avoid issues in the system (all of the above, the respawn system, etc).
Last edited by Celestial1 on 2009-08-31 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
sparks50
Posts: 1128
Joined: 2008-07-16 21:30

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by sparks50 »

The most realistic way would be to tell the player that soldier hes in controll has been replaced by a new one, and the last one(wounded or dead) has been transport away from the battlefield. Sort of like Red Orchestra that does not call respawns respawn, but replacements.


But seriously, there has to be taken some compromises in realism to retain gameplay. Thats just the way it is.
Last edited by sparks50 on 2009-08-31 15:08, edited 2 times in total.
Ccharge
Posts: 308
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Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Ccharge »

You know what ive changed my mind. I dislike the idea of any of theses. Medics job is already hard. Why make it harder? having to go to a medical tent is just stupid. Im not going to haul my squad back there just to get healed. If you guys can't kill the people in a squad then you arn't playing properly. Make sure you take care of people who need to be healed before you take care of the medic (people can pickup his kit). Get some nice shots and problem solved.
if you miss him... try, try again
PatrickLA_CA
Posts: 2243
Joined: 2009-07-14 09:31

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by PatrickLA_CA »

+1 on that suggestion! I agree wit all you said Wilkinson
dtacs
Posts: 5512
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Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by dtacs »

Medivac system seems like a bit of a waste of assets.

A soldier dying is more important than risking a Huey to lift him out, ala Archer.

Other than that the medical tent is genius.

I don't see a single map where there isn't tents or a small shack or a little room that would be PERFECT for this.

Can it be coded to not take damage, and act just like another static building?

I can see some sort of bug happening with it, though.
Gore
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 2491
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Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Gore »

Medic tents or field hospitals could be a good idea. It should require at least 2 or 3 squadleaders (if possible medics!) to set it up. Restrict it to 1 or 2 per team. Making it enterable by 6 players or so, and a good amount of time before fully healed.

One very cool thing to do though, is to join a transport chopper squad as a medic, and stay with your chopper. With proper communications this is highly effective. The problem with setting these tents up is that it'd slow gameplay down even more, alot of people wouldn't be able to limp back to the tents in time, incompetent pilots.. the tents could be spammy as well. It is an interesting idea though, could be fun to see what's possible. But,
PLODDITHANLEY wrote:I think the present medic system is OK, I quite often have to find more epipens in the course of a battle anyway!
x2.
Last edited by Gore on 2009-08-31 12:22, edited 4 times in total.
PLODDITHANLEY
Posts: 3608
Joined: 2009-05-02 19:44

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by PLODDITHANLEY »

I am virtually always medic.
I like Wilkinsons ideas particulaly the tent, but it is hard enough to get SM's to fall back to me as medic just at the rear of the fight i imagine it would be rare that people would fall back further for longer to the tent?
I think the present medic sysytem is OK, I quite often have to find more epipens in the course of a battle anyway!
cyberzomby
Posts: 5336
Joined: 2007-04-03 07:12

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by cyberzomby »

hmmm, I like the tent as a firebase add on maybe. I also like the medic bag running out (like 2142 had in a way)

Im not to keen on the rest like med-evac choppers. On some maps, its hard enough as is to fill out the infantry squads!

EDIT: I almost always play medic btw :)
Herbiie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 2009-08-24 11:21

Re: Wilkinson's Medic System Overhaul Suggestion

Post by Herbiie »

If you limit the Medic bag - what's the advantage of that over Field Dressings? Field Dressings are quicker. you have 8 or 9 (can't remember which) and can heal around 5 or 6 people (depending on how hurt they are.

If you found that you were having an easy time as a Medic, you obviously weren't a very good one (No insult intended). A good medic is the one that is sitting in the corner calm, sure that none of his patients are going to get killed with multiple casualties (multiple casualties ofc being the true test of a medic).

I like the Poster Above (Jonny)'s idea of losing 1 ticket if you are wounded, then another one if you die. I think Also Extending Spawn Time Slightly, so that Reviving is usually quicker.

Also, have you seen the HUGE rucksack on the back of some medics? that's their medical kits. they can deal with alot of casualties.

Also, as said by several people, no one would use the tent unless they were next to a firebase, and if they were next to a firebase, the medic would be right next to a crate so it would be useless. People would be more Inclicned to give up if there wasn't the guarantee that their medic will be able to heal them.
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