AR kit

[bravoss]

I am pretty much an average player altough I installed the mod a long time ago, but played it very very rarely and now decided to install it back and focus on it more seriously. What always pissed me off were the unnecessary deaths because of bad shooting with assault rifles. I just don't have enough practice so sometimes the situations that are favorable to me I end up being shot nevertheless. About insurgent weapons I don't want to even talk. The mod itself is very interesting, giving a totally new perspective and gameplay into PR. I was never really interested in playing as automatic riflemen but a couple of days decided to try it. I thought I'll probably suck at it because it's much less ''all-around'' weapon than the assault rifle, and I'm pretty much an ''all-around player''. Very soon after spawning, medium to long range contact on the hills, I go prone, aim the scope, fire a couple of short bursts and the target is down very shortly after I opened fire. Wow, I'm starting to like this, but probably it was luck. I've been roaming the streets of West Fallujah for some time and made a very good score when it comes to K/D ratio. Some of the best I ever made, when I was going good with an assault rifle, and this was only my first game with MG. Long Range-medium range and even CQB, the MG performs so good. No matter if shooting at targets popping up at windows of the building at medium range, or even entering a building and engaging in CQB I was much more successful with this MG than with AR. What made it good in CQB is the high volume of fire and not so big recoil to compensate for the lack of accuracy because of no crosshairs. I'd say it's much harder to hit a target in PR with no sights on, than in real life, simply because in game you don't have the same feeling for where the gun is pointing and your surroundings that you have in real life, so for a new player it's hard to be effective in CQB with an assault rifle where you pretty much have to make every shot count, that's why the MG is much more beginner friendly because the high volume of fire compensates for lack of skill. Maybe I was just lucky, or it was because I was in a great squad, the squad leader was always up to something and the gameplay was really dynamic. Such rounds are the ones that keep me enjoying this game.

I was interested in what are your opinions on the AR kit, is it really the best kit for new players, is it overpowered, or not ?

[Maxfragg]

the best kit for a newbee keeps being the usual rifleman, because you really should learn how to use this, before using any other kit, especially those that are limited. and even if the ar kit might be quite handy in killing enemies, this should not be your first task, but giving your squadmates supressingfire, while they are changing possition

[Shredhead99]

It really is a much more simple to use weapon than the Assaultrifle, by that you're right. But there is a great mistake in your thinking --> You think K/D counts, and that is absolutely wrong! If you just use the MG to make kills, you're the wrong man on the wrong gun, because that is not what your Squad and your Team needs. Suppressive fire is what they need from the machinegunner! If there is an enemy position spotted, it's ok to do 1 or 2 kills intentionally, but then your job is to lay down a steady hail of fire (in bursts) on the enemy to force him to hold his head down or to retreat, while your mates figure out a way to get in grenade- range or take them from the flanks.
You can prevent medics from reviving their mates by firing bursts into the smoke, you cover flanks, stairways and entrances.
Your Assault Rifle is best used (nearly always, especially the M16/M4) in semi- mode. You are a lot more accurate with single shots, even in CQB. There you just have to trigger the mousebutton rapidly

[bravoss]

Well I actually tried to use it as it should be used. Covering them when approaching the building, suppressing fire etc... I was always the one who runs around the least and covers the most.

[SkaterCrush]

But there is a great mistake in your thinking --> You think K/D counts, and that is absolutely wrong!

Uh...your wrong, he could have saved his team a good amount of tickets if even ONE of those guys had an RPG and would have blown up a Bradley or something

[Shredhead99]

Uh...your wrong, he could have saved his team a good amount of tickets if even ONE of those guys had an RPG and would have blown up a Bradley or something

Yes, but the guy with the RPG can be taken out by anyone. The Assault Rifles on the other hand are not that able to suppress the other 5 guys of RPG-man's Squad, right?

It's a matter of mindset, you should not use the MG to kill as many guys as you can, but to help your squad as good as you can. Just preferences.

Well I actually tried to use it as it should be used. Covering them when approaching the building, suppressing fire etc... I was always the one who runs around the least and covers the most.

So, you got it. But you should try to get handy with rifles either, just try them in single-fire mode, between the shots you should count to three, it works, you'll see!

[goguapsy]

the AR is now balanced for suppresive fire, some claim its overpowered due to the fact that some snipers get sniped by ARs. never happened to me though.

ANYWAYS you are right. Its hard to have the positional feeling of a gun in PR compared to RL, but this is a gameplay measure to prevent l33t vbf2 sniping with hip fire.

Now, the hip fire term is wrong because people never carry their weapons at their hips but at a "ready" instance, in your shoulder, but not aiming down your sights.

Well, CQBs is an ever problem for all FPS games, since, if a weapons is good for CQB it's good for long ranges too (due to small bullet-spread). Another mistake to be found in another FPS (AA3) is the fact that the DMR has a longer barrel than the standart m16, therefore its harder to manouver in tight environments. But ive seen a lot of pwnage with a DMR vs M4.

So, PR focus more on mid range firefights. CQBs are a realistic game's worst nightmare for balancing.

Therefore no, the AR isn't overpowered in CQB, IRL and IPR. It's just a virtual error!

[Nimise]

the AR is now balanced for suppresive fire, some claim its overpowered due to the fact that some snipers get sniped by ARs. never happened to me though.

ANYWAYS you are right. Its hard to have the positional feeling of a gun in PR compared to RL, but this is a gameplay measure to prevent l33t vbf2 sniping with hip fire.

Now, the hip fire term is wrong because people never carry their weapons at their hips but at a "ready" instance, in your shoulder, but not aiming down your sights.

Well, CQBs is an ever problem for all FPS games, since, if a weapons is good for CQB it's good for long ranges too (due to small bullet-spread). Another mistake to be found in another FPS (AA3) is the fact that the DMR has a longer barrel than the standart m16, therefore its harder to manouver in tight environments. But ive seen a lot of pwnage with a DMR vs M4.

So, PR focus more on mid range firefights. CQBs are a realistic game's worst nightmare for balancing.

Therefore no, the AR isn't overpowered in CQB, IRL and IPR. It's just a virtual error!

But the thing is they could easy make it suck in CQB and be good at long ranges....

[goguapsy]

But the thing is they could easy make it suck in CQB and be good at long ranges....

IRL the AR is not bad at CQB... at all! This is actually realistic in PR... this happens in PR due to the huge fire-rate of the gun (in PR) and the stock (in RL).

This can't happen with assault rifles because that would be vbf2 all over again...

So the AR is good as it is. But its not that simple with Assault Rifles in the virtual world (with the current engines in the market, which normally doesn't have collision mashes for the rifle barrel. which could be easily fixed (but VERY buggy) by increasing the collision "globe" around a character.).

[McBumLuv]

ARs aren't overpowered in CQC. They lack all other indirect means of fighting in CQC, such as grenades, and aren't as agile with their weapon when sighted in and such (and don't use the answer with the mice with adjustable DPI, because it's not an exploit available to most people, and not always on-the-fly DPI changes). But if it comes to setting up and covering a small enterance, then yes, they are great even in Close Quarters.

[angellfall]

IMO AR is like it should be... Tho there should be some way to aim reasonable whitout using scope...

[gazzthompson]

IMO AR is like it should be... Tho there should be some way to aim reasonable whitout using scope...

you can, VERY effectively.

use undeployed mode and right click.

[bravoss]

So, you got it. But you should try to get handy with rifles either, just try them in single-fire mode, between the shots you should count to three, it works, you'll see!

Well one of the drawbacks is that you can't judge when the rifle is steady and you're ready to take the shot. No indication of it. When I just started playing I would always wait for some time before and between shots, then I realised that in many situations it's just better not to worry much about it and start firing as soon as you aim down the sight and squeeze the trigger in relatively fast succession. It's just a matter of getting the feel for the bullet deviation when rapid firing and judging it's relation to distance of the target.


Some people say that the rifle should have more recoil at standing stance to deter players from spraying bullets standing, but having it's heavy size in mind which is there for purpose the recoil shouldn't be too big and it's used quite often in standing or crouching stance with no support. What I think that should be done to slightly lower it's effectiveness is to make it move more slowly, even when used without sights, to show its weight and importance of that in CQB.

[Ninja2dan]

People need to get it out of their minds that the AR is not meant to be a super duper enemy scooper. Too many kids pick up the SAW thinking it's just a bag full of rock-n-roll with a huge magazine, but they fail so often to understand the role of the auto rifleman.

The primary purpose of the SAW is to provide your squad with the ability to lay down covering and suppressing fire, that is what the weapon is designed for. They are not meant to be a precision weapon, at least not as precise as a standard battle rifle. While they can be fairly accurate, their design is made with an intended deviation to provide better fire support.

In CQB the SAW will be a useful weapon in certain circumstances, but only if used effectively with the rest of the squad. The SAW will take some practice before you can use it effectively, and it's surely not a starter weapon. By giving the AR kit to a newer player that doesn't have enough experience with the basics of the game or fundamental knowledge of military tactics, they are just going to be wasting the kit.

As a real life Auto Rifleman, I know how effective the SAW can be when used in the proper manner. And I have also seen how it can be very dangerous to your own troops and mission if used incorrectly. For this reason, I would recommend everyone that intends to use a SAW to get some range time on a training server and read some guides on the role of the Auto Rifleman before they try using the kit on a populated server.

As an example of the level of difficulty in performing as a SAW gunner, the military will usually assign that slot after you have spent so much time in your squad rotating through other weapon systems first and only when you have shown enough understanding of the system and skills. First is the Rifleman, issued the standard rifle. Next might be the Grenadier, issued obviously the M203 or similar. After that comes the SAW gunner. The AR is usually one with some of the most experience in his squad.

[Paas]

As an example of the level of difficulty in performing as a SAW gunner, the military will usually assign that slot after you have spent so much time in your squad rotating through other weapon systems first and only when you have shown enough understanding of the system and skills. First is the Rifleman, issued the standard rifle. Next might be the Grenadier, issued obviously the M203 or similar. After that comes the SAW gunner. The AR is usually one with some of the most experience in his squad.

You're joking right? I refuse to cary the SAW when I was with the Regiment. That's what you have PVTs and PFCs for. The thing is heavy (the Paras are nice, but we didn't have one at the time), and I can get just as much done with my M4 or A4 as any "Squad Automajiger". MTV + SAW is not my idea of a good time.

Hell, I have yet to see "ANY" Cpl gunning. Let alone a Sgt. You might see a LCpl gunning if he isn't the team leader.

That's just my experience though.

- Paas

[Ninja2dan]

You're joking right? I refuse to cary the SAW when I was with the Regiment. That's what you have PVTs and PFCs for. The thing is heavy (the Paras are nice, but we didn't have one at the time), and I can get just as much done with my M4 or A4 as any "Squad Automajiger". MTV + SAW is not my idea of a good time.

Hell, I have yet to see "ANY" Cpl gunning. Let alone a Sgt. You might see a LCpl gunning if he isn't the team leader.

That's just my experience though.

- Paas

It might just be the difference in training between Branches, or types of unit you are assigned with. But as an infantryman, I loved the M249. I was assigned as the AR just as the SAW was becoming widely issued, and actually spent a couple months carrying an M60 while waiting for my own M249 to be issued. I used the M249 through all of the updates and improvements, and have become very familiar with it. Having used just about every weapon in the inventory, I would prefer no other weapon over the M249.

The weapon might be heavier than a rifle, but that's in part to its design and purpose. It's a lot lighter than the M60 and has much more use in the squad. If the weapon system is used as intended, then no rifle will be capable of delivering the fire support that the SAW offers. Personally, I don't like the new Para model. It just doesn't feel "right" when I became so used to the regular version.

I am looking to be deployed to Iraq within a few months hopefully, and my only wish is that I can be reassigned to the AR role. I didn't mind humping that weapon around, and was pretty good with it. The image on my avatar was me during a weapon qual with the SAW about 11 years ago.

I do know other soldiers who share your feelings about the M249, but most of the AR's I knew liked the weapon. As long as your unit trains in proper use of the weapon system in coordination with the rest of your fire team or squad, then the SAW can play a vital role in combat.

[goguapsy]

People need to get it out of their minds that the AR is not meant to be a super duper enemy scooper. Too many kids pick up the SAW thinking it's just a bag full of rock-n-roll with a huge magazine, but they fail so often to understand the role of the auto rifleman.

The discussion here is the fact that the AR is a bag full of rock-n-roll BUT with a hell of a nice precision.


As an example of the level of difficulty in performing as a SAW gunner, the military will usually assign that slot after you have spent so much time in your squad rotating through other weapon systems first and only when you have shown enough understanding of the system and skills. First is the Rifleman, issued the standard rifle. Next might be the Grenadier, issued obviously the M203 or similar. After that comes the SAW gunner. The AR is usually one with some of the most experience in his squad.

Then, why is the AR the last person in command in America's Army 3?

Comments in red.

[Ninja2dan]

I haven't used the M249 in PR for a while now, so I'm not aware of it being overly-accurate compared to the real thing. If the AR is in fact as precise as a standard rifle, then that is a problem. While I was able to keep 3-5 round bursts on target almost as well as I could my M16A2, the weapon itself is designed to have some deviation just like all other LMG's and HMG's. Although the SAW was still fairly accurate compared to the M60, it's still not something I would see people using to snipe off targets at 400m.

So if this is in fact a problem, then yes it needs to be looked at. The SAW needs to have some deviation, but not nearly as much as say the M2HB or M240.


As for the AR being the lowest-ranking position on AA3, I don't play that game so I have no clue. But my experience as a US Army Infantryman, the SAW Gunner was not the lowest man on the totem pole. The lowest grunt is always the Rifleman, aka Ammo Bearer or Gunner Gimp. Next up was usually the Grenadier, since they required only a little more training and experience in using the M203 in addition to their rifle. Next in line was the Automatic Rifleman, who traded in his M203 for the M249. To properly use a SAW, you needed experience in fire team and squad tactics as well as the additional training on how to use the weapon system. After SAW Gunner was the Fire Team Leader slot, trading in his M249 for either the M16 or M4 again. In some squads, such as a heavy weapons support squad, the AR was replaced or supported by the addition of a Machine Gunner and Assistant Machine Gunner, once humping the M60 but now transitioned to the M240B.

While America's Army does some things based on realism, not everything in that game is so. And if they are slotting the AR as the lowest soldier, that is an obvious mistake meant for gameplay purposes and not based on real-life squad assignments.

[Paas]

I haven't used the M249 in PR for a while now, so I'm not aware of it being overly-accurate compared to the real thing. If the AR is in fact as precise as a standard rifle, then that is a problem. While I was able to keep 3-5 round bursts on target almost as well as I could my M16A2, the weapon itself is designed to have some deviation just like all other LMG's and HMG's. Although the SAW was still fairly accurate compared to the M60, it's still not something I would see people using to snipe off targets at 400m.

The AR isn't as precise as a rifle, it's made to looser tolerances. That is a none issue. Even in game the AR is not as "precise" as the A4. The thing people are mostly missing, and I'm not targeting you, is the M249 is just about as accurate as an A4. You're talking the difference between a theoretical 1-3 inch grouping and a 5-6 inch group. At 400m, assuming the worse (12 inch grouping at 100m, which is insane) the saw is putting out 4 foot groupings as 400m.

Now, we are talking about 3 rounds. The M249 isn't putting out just three rounds. It can blanket that 4 feet with about 25-50 rounds depending on the capabilites of the gunner and positioning. Hell, with proper support, you may be looking at an entire century pack within 4 feet of point of aim.

I think the biggest issue is people aren't respecting the true capabilities of the weapon. If a Gunner get's eyes on you from any position he is going to have the advantage. It's a matter of fire volume becoming instant fire superiority. No kit should be able to go toe to toe with a Gunner within the range of 500m, especially if he has optics and a supported position.

As for the AR being the lowest-ranking position on AA3, I don't play that game so I have no clue. But my experience as a US Army Infantryman, the SAW Gunner was not the lowest man on the totem pole. The lowest grunt is always the Rifleman, aka Ammo Bearer or Gunner Gimp. Next up was usually the Grenadier, since they required only a little more training and experience in using the M203 in addition to their rifle. Next in line was the Automatic Rifleman, who traded in his M203 for the M249. To properly use a SAW, you needed experience in fire team and squad tactics as well as the additional training on how to use the weapon system. After SAW Gunner was the Fire Team Leader slot, trading in his M249 for either the M16 or M4 again. In some squads, such as a heavy weapons support squad, the AR was replaced or supported by the addition of a Machine Gunner and Assistant Machine Gunner, once humping the M60 but now transitioned to the M240B.

While America's Army does some things based on realism, not everything in that game is so. And if they are slotting the AR as the lowest soldier, that is an obvious mistake meant for gameplay purposes and not based on real-life squad assignments.

Yeah, who gets the SAW is really down to a team level. It ain't going to be me though unless I'm hitched up with a bunch of Sgts or Higher. ...and since I'm not recon, marsoc or anything else like that. I'm pretty safe.

...and it's AA3. It's silly.

Paas