[Question] MAG58's vs SR25s?

[Truism]

It's pretty late in the development cycle to be brining this up, but isn't it a little odd that SR25's which don't feature heavily in doctrine are being wedged in so that Australia can have a DM class when the gun group carries a MAG58 in Afghanistan and it's planned that the section will have it's gun replaced by a MAG58 in all the battalions soon?

In reality most ARA personel have never seen an SR25 before and employment of DMs isn't taught to officers or NCOs in our Army. Why is the ADF going to have a DM class when our army doesn't have DMs? A lot of things have been excused for the sake of balance in terms of tweaking minor details and capabilities, but changing the basic layout of an Army's section is probably a step too far.

Basically, will the ADF get an FN MAG for the gunner, or are we going to have the DM indefinately?

[anglomanii]

MAG 58 gsmg, is already issued to all ARA active groups, as the second section gun, the first section gun as we all know is the F89 lsw. this is mostly due to upgrades from land 91
sr25's are being rolled out to units on a platoon basis, (also land 91 ) (i am looking into a lead that may suggest a F88a4 iw variant, might be in consideration for this role in the next roll out and test phase.)

all this comes under the developments from land125 under MAJ Thomas Basan (land development branch)

[Tonnie]

OK, so i can see where ur coming from and i agree... but theres always the balence issue, i mean if i could have it my way a section would look like this

1 Seco
2 Riflemen
1 F89 minimi
1 Mag58
1 Medic

And on top of that every second guy would have a m72A6, most would have GLAs attached then also have f1 nades... As much as this would be alot more realistic we have to take into account that the OPFOR would get the ***'s handed to them and there for we must watch the balence.

tonnie

[Tirak]

Not to go completely off topic or anything, but perhaps the Rifleman (Irons) (If you guys are going to have one, the Steyr thread seems to indicate otherwise), could have one or two LAWs instead of frag and incendiary grenades. You trade numbers for range. I'm not entirely sure how equal a Frag grenade would be to a LAW, but it's a thought.

[Jimbom]

Our Iron Sight Rifleman equivalent in the Australian Army is a soldier armed with an F88 Austeyr with a 1.5x optical sight.

The M72A6 (LAW) is carried at section level (Squad) by two or more Rifleman depending on how many are available. The LAW is our army's equivalent of a L-AT kit with a range of ~250 and a rocket able to punch through 150mm of modern armour the explosion they make when you miss and hit the ground I can tell you from experience is pretty big.

In terms of balance if everyone could spawn with an Inf raping rocket launcher instead of Grenades then the other team is just going to disappear in a hail of firey rocket flavoured death!

[anglomanii]

@ JimBom: yeah but you only get one, and as they are not a fragmentation warhead, the actual kill zone, is not as big as some other weapons, i simply think the law would be best if it was deployed more closely to how we actually do it. we just don't have the big guided missiles that other forces do. so in this respect i think we are handicapped as a representation of a modern military force.

@ all others: i really have to agree with Tonnie on this as, the ADF is simply not built along the lines of other forces. essentially we are a rifleman's army and this is still the core of our forces today. yes we have mechanized and motorized elements, but we still deploy our teams in a manner that has taken us over 100 years to evolve into.

from what i have read, watched and talked about with ADF personnel in some ways we seem to be the professional insurgent force. it is often our forces infiltrating the enemies area's coursing disruption, creating confusion and turning the local population against its occupiers.

[Truism]

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Tonnie;1131382']
And on top of that every second guy would have a m72A6, most would have GLAs attached then also have f1 nades... As much as this would be alot more realistic we have to take into account that the OPFOR would get the ***'s handed to them and there for we must watch the balence.

tonnie[/quote]

Our GLA class should be outfitted as our grenadiers are - no smoke shells, at least 12 HE rounds, as well as frag grenades.

Give the HAT kit smoke rockets instead.

Replace the AA kit with something else, like a signaller class.

Take the binocs off all the kits bar the Officer, use the slot for something we actually use.

Use the Marksman slot for the MAG.

Rifle classes need more F1's, between four and six.

So what if ADF infantry is stronger? We are an infantry centric Army built around the individual soldier and sections capabilities. The ADF has always operated with the belief that anything the infantry section can't do, the platoon can with use of correct support. As an Army our infantry are second to none and can achieve anything with correct support and leadership - Beersheba, Le Hamel, Bardia, Tobruk, Kapyong, Long Tan, FSB Coral all demonstrate this fact.

It wouldn't be bad at all to see the ADF get more challenging scenarios and perhaps less access to vehicular support in return for more accurate loadouts that would allow us to function more like we do in real life.

Of course there's no way the Devs would allow a force to deviate so far from the template, which is unfortunate.

[quote="anglomanii""]
from what i have read, watched and talked about with ADF personnel in some ways we seem to be the professional insurgent force. it is often our forces infiltrating the enemies area's coursing disruption, creating confusion and turning the local population against its occupiers.[/quote]

Hit it on the head.

[anglomanii]

i dont want to blow smoke up ya butt mate, but you do have some good points there.

Our GLA class should be outfitted as our grenadiers are - no smoke shells, at least 12 HE rounds, as well as frag grenades.

Give the HAT kit smoke rockets instead.

Replace the AA kit with something else, like a signaller class.

Take the binocs off all the kits bar the Officer, use the slot for something we actually use.

Use the Marksman slot for the MAG.

Rifle classes need more F1's, between four and six.

though IMO you'd be better off dual classing the mag and the f89.

if we take on anything else but insurgency or Taliban we will need AA

but i do agree with taking bino's of the grunts. i am pretty sure our inf dont have them

[Truism]

Our manpack AA is the RBS70 system which has to be deployed onto a launcher assembly before use, sort of like the current Firebase AA setup.

And the fact is that we roll with nearly twice as many machine guns as comparable forces.

[SkaterCrush]

Are you even listening to yourself Truism? You're basically saying that Australia is like the best armed forces in the world, and while I love Australia, quite frankly thats not true. I agree this is Project Reality, but first and foremost it is a game, and the one thing a lot of people look for in online shooters is balance, and if the ADF is kicking everyone elses *** it won't be fun and it will be very unbalanced.

[Truism]

Are you even listening to yourself Truism? You're basically saying that Australia is like the best armed forces in the world, and while I love Australia, quite frankly thats not true. I agree this is Project Reality, but first and foremost it is a game, and the one thing a lot of people look for in online shooters is balance, and if the ADF is kicking everyone elses *** it won't be fun and it will be very unbalanced.

Do reread what was said.

Australia has the best light infantry in the world, but struggles with sustained tasks, armour and support operations.

Australian _Infantry_ have consistantly shown themselves to be nutcases, but no other arm has done so.

[Tirak]

No vs threads, stay on topic.

[anglomanii]

i was under the impression that tickets and maps where supposed to be the balancing agents

[ChiefRyza]

Well, if I was playing a map and one side just totally out-equipped the other, beating the **** through them in every engagement, I wouldn't be sticking around for very long. As much as you need to stick to reality there is no point in making a game that is only fun for one side.

[anglomanii]

then why play insugents,
i love playing insurgents, i get this great feeling of elation every time i smoke a bluefor.

i understand where you are comeing from though and yes to be totally out classed would suck. but i am not sure the ADF would be that totally overwhealming. and it will take some convincing for me to believe the ADF is so totally unbeatable. besides how many times in history did a guerilla force completely outclassed by the enemy triumph?, i take heart from the rising masses of the peasants to overwaelm his oppressors for is that not in its self a weapon?

[Chuc]

Let's just get all the hard asset work done before getting our knickers tied up in a bunch about whether we're under-equipping the faction.

[VisOne]

Let's just get all the hard asset work done before getting our knickers tied up in a bunch about whether we're under-equipping the faction.

There you have it Sir Chuc has spoken all arguments are now null and void.

[anglomanii]

well that would mean i have absolutly no creative input into this mod, i mean what am i able to do other than whinge.... actually i see your point, shutting up now.

[Anhkhoa]

OK, so i can see where ur coming from and i agree... but theres always the balence issue, i mean if i could have it my way a section would look like this

1 Seco
2 Riflemen
1 F89 minimi
1 Mag58
1 Medic

And on top of that every second guy would have a m72A6, most would have GLAs attached then also have f1 nades... As much as this would be alot more realistic we have to take into account that the OPFOR would get the ***'s handed to them and there for we must watch the balence.

tonnie

You could work this out by giving them the following kit layout.

Officer - F88 (w.e equipment goes here)
Limited Rifleman Irons (F88 1.5 zoom scope, LAW, w.e equipment goes here)
Infinite Rifleman Scope (1 or 2 extra nades)
SAW (only 1.5 zoom to help with un-Over powering the equipment)
Medic (equipment)
Requestable GPMG (same system used before Squad machine guns)
HAT - (2-4 M3 Optics AT rounds)
LAT - (1-2 M3 Irons AP rounds)