[Ideas] PR Future Engine Ideas and Suggestions

[Vakaris]

I've noticed a few flaws in the "C4 engine", the big gumball can't stop roling, it is bigger and obviously heavyer then the others, yet it moves slower downhill which is a huge bug, the engine basicly sucks compared to some of the other engines we currently have out there and fro mwhat I see it eats a ton of resoruces. The wall also fell into cubes and not dust or anything else, and those cubes seem to roll just fine jsut like the balls. Basicly it's worse then the current BF2 engine.

On other matters, if the game is made pay-to-play I garuantee it will loose atlast 60% of the players it has now, including me, and that is a lot consithering there are only 2-4 full servers 9am-03am +2GMT. I've seen more full servers on Serious Sam (released on year 2000) then here and that should be a big blow to some of the people here.

Bottom line - C4 engine does NOT seem better then the current and pay-to-play policy would be a disaster for the PR community as well as the PR team.

[DannyIMK]

if PR is going to be pay to play can you do a sms payment? for those that don't have credit card/paypal etc?

[Leopardi]

Battlefield 3 engine is the obvious choice?

[Vakaris]

if PR is going to be pay to play can you do a sms payment? for those that don't have credit card/paypal etc?

I don't think they'll go to pay-to-play because there's more loss then win to it.

Battlefield 3 engine is the obvious choice?

Does the BF3 engine even exist?

[ChiefRyza]

Vakaris you understand how much work the DEV's pour into this mod for the little appreciation they get? Then they decide they want a little extra for their efforts, and people like you rock up telling them "it will destroy the community" etc, etc, etc.

If you want a better engine then go save up a couple hundred thousand dollars and fund the DEV's. The engine the DEVS will use however is not up to you, so do a little research and show some respect to the guys doing this all for free, instead of treating them like mere slaves for the development of a game you enjoy. If you like PR enough I would imagine you could fork out 30 bucks a year. I personally think it is worth much, much more than that.

And bugger the Battlefield series, if PR was to become another mod (which it won't) then I certainly wouldn't go with the most unsupportive, uptight games company in the world.

[Vakaris]

Vakaris you understand how much work the DEV's pour into this mod for the little appreciation they get? Then they decide they want a little extra for their efforts, and people like you rock up telling them "it will destroy the community" etc, etc, etc.

If you want a better engine then go save up a couple hundred thousand dollars and fund the DEV's. The engine the DEVS will use however is not up to you, so do a little research and show some respect to the guys doing this all for free, instead of treating them like mere slaves for the development of a game you enjoy. If you like PR enough I would imagine you could fork out 30 bucks a year. I personally think it is worth much, much more than that.

And bugger the Battlefield series, if PR was to become another mod (which it won't) then I certainly wouldn't go with the most unsupportive, uptight games company in the world.

If you would pay to play the game, go ahead and doante monthly. The majority of the community will not pay, that is written black on white. What are they going to do with a few hundred a month if only 5 to 20 players are playing isntead of hundreds or thousands? Pay to play games also have one "small" problem they have to deal with every second of theif popularity - pirates. A good example would be Lineage 2: pirates cracked, "unofficiual" servers began to pop up soon after, the server code was out to the masses and there were actualy some realy sucsessfull servers. Some had 5-20 players daily, some had one to ten THOUSAND players online all the time. All the admins asked in return was for us to have fun, and we did. Then it got updated into a newer patch which sucked, the server fell to pieces, blah blah blah... You don't need to know more then that.

Personaly, I like the current engine as it is, don't like it, buy them a new one. Sure the graphics are a bit buggy, maps are crude and when you look far away you see the terrain flickering liek a badly drawn flash game. Aside form that - it's a great game and doesn't need a new engine.

[AquaticPenguin]

I've noticed a few flaws in the "C4 engine", the big gumball can't stop roling, it is bigger and obviously heavyer then the others yet it moves slower downhill which is a huge bug.

As they have said in this thread a couple of times, the physics engine in C4 is a WIP, and is set for the next major release of the engine. The physics is network aware physics (vital for a future PR if we want to have good vehicles/bullet dynamics/rigid bodies). If all else fails then the devs can implement a third party physics engine like the Bullet engine which is open source and very powerful.

Also, what is the error in the physics. If I've seen the same video as you of the physics tour then they explain the reason the ball can't stop rolling is because the angular damping is set low. And the reason it moves slower downhill is because the objects are under the same force of gravity, so the larger mass and greater rolling resistance means that its acceleration is lower than that of the smaller gumballs.

the engine basicly sucks compared to some of the other engines we currently have out there and fro mwhat I see it eats a ton of resoruces.

You shouldn't be comparing the engine to modern, corporate game engines because the engine is designed for indie games as being a good platform for people who just want to experiment and not have to worry about writing their own engine. The performance of the engine is not too bad either. The physics simulation video shows hundreds of rigid bodies under the influence of many forces and colliding with each other in real-time at a pretty reasonable frame rate.

The wall also fell into cubes and not dust or anything else, and those cubes seem to roll just fine jsut like the balls. Basicly it's worse then the current BF2 engine.

Graphically it has better water, the possibility of custom shaders, voxel terrain which allows overhangs and destructible terrain and soon-to-be dynamic loading of voxel terrain which makes theoretically unlimited terrain sizes possible. If I read the website correctly they also get the source code which they can adapt to suit them better if needed, and this may also give the possibility of doing more complicated shaders via shader language or through the shader editor like SSAO, paralax mapping, subsurface scattering etc.

Another advantage of the engine is the developer is very actively listening to his customers and developing. There is a forum for the engine with a few experts and a lot of active members so there's plenty of support.

On other matters, if the game is made pay-to-play I garuantee it will loose atlast 60% of the players it has now, including me, and that is a lot consithering there are only 2-4 full servers 9am-03am +2GMT. I've seen more full servers on Serious Sam (released on year 2000) then here and that should be a big blow to some of the people here.

I think, if anything, more people will join than will be lost since the game would no longer be tied to BF2.. and the advantage of having a pay-to-play system is that the players you get are more commited less likely to hack and act immature. Either way I think this is a bit speculative and lets see what the devs get up to before we make assumptions.

Bottom line - C4 engine does NOT seem better then the current and pay-to-play policy would be a disaster for the PR community as well as the PR team.

Well PR2 is in alpha and the devs are working on both so any complaints are fairly groundless. The devs brought the engine themselves and deserve to get something out of it which isn't complaints about how it could be pay-to-play, and you haven't really looked at the engine in detail to discover that it's a good and competitive engine for indie games. Besides, PR1 development won't stop unless PR2 makes it off the ground.

edit:

If you would pay to play the game, go ahead and doante monthly. The majority of the community will not pay, that is written black on white.

Currently PR is limited to being a bf2 mod... That means only people who pay for bf2 can play PR. Running on an independant engine means people will actively buy the game rather than acquiring the mod. A pay-to-play subscription would mean that people can try it without having to shell out money for it... Basically if it's a good game, people will buy it, and I'm sure many people who had played the mod would buy it if they liked the mod.

Pay to play games also have one "small" problem they have to deal with every second of theif popularity - pirates.

From what I've seen pirating doesn't happen as much on small indie games where there isn't much to gain. Yes maybe lineage 2 was cracked, but how many games are there out there which haven't be cracked?

[Vakaris]

As they have said in this thread a couple of times, the physics engine in C4 is a WIP, and is set for the next major release of the engine. The physics is network aware physics (vital for a future PR if we want to have good vehicles/bullet dynamics/rigid bodies). If all else fails then the devs can implement a third party physics engine like the Bullet engine which is open source and very powerful.

Also, what is the error in the physics. If I've seen the same video as you of the physics tour then they explain the reason the ball can't stop rolling is because the angular damping is set low. And the reason it moves slower downhill is because the objects are under the same force of gravity, so the larger mass and greater rolling resistance means that its acceleration is lower than that of the smaller gumballs.



You shouldn't be comparing the engine to modern, corporate game engines because the engine is designed for indie games as being a good platform for people who just want to experiment and not have to worry about writing their own engine. The performance of the engine is not too bad either. The physics simulation video shows hundreds of rigid bodies under the influence of many forces and colliding with each other in real-time at a pretty reasonable frame rate.



Graphically it has better water, the possibility of custom shaders, voxel terrain which allows overhangs and destructible terrain and soon-to-be dynamic loading of voxel terrain which makes theoretically unlimited terrain sizes possible. If I read the website correctly they also get the source code which they can adapt to suit them better if needed, and this may also give the possibility of doing more complicated shaders via shader language or through the shader editor like SSAO, paralax mapping, subsurface scattering etc.

Another advantage of the engine is the developer is very actively listening to his customers and developing. There is a forum for the engine with a few experts and a lot of active members so there's plenty of support.



I think, if anything, more people will join than will be lost since the game would no longer be tied to BF2.. and the advantage of having a pay-to-play system is that the players you get are more commited less likely to hack and act immature. Either way I think this is a bit speculative and lets see what the devs get up to before we make assumptions.



Well PR2 is in alpha and the devs are working on both so any complaints are fairly groundless. The devs brought the engine themselves and deserve to get something out of it which isn't complaints about how it could be pay-to-play, and you haven't really looked at the engine in detail to discover that it's a good and competitive engine for indie games. Besides, PR1 development won't stop unless PR2 makes it off the ground.

edit:



Currently PR is limited to being a bf2 mod... That means only people who pay for bf2 can play PR. Running on an independant engine means people will actively buy the game rather than acquiring the mod. A pay-to-play subscription would mean that people can try it without having to shell out money for it... Basically if it's a good game, people will buy it, and I'm sure many people who had played the mod would buy it if they liked the mod.



From what I've seen pirating doesn't happen as much on small indie games where there isn't much to gain. Yes maybe lineage 2 was cracked, but how many games are there out there which haven't be cracked?[/QUOTE]

1.But the object is heavyer with sise and it has a bigger outline, it rolls slower, yes, but it rolls faster, that they failed to understand. I hate it when people without even the basic knoledge of physics try to make game-engines...

2.You can get more frames for the ammout of stres you give to the engine by just using the CryTec engine, it doesn't mow down frames like a batalion of gazzels mows down grass for each little new object.

3.A lot of members, twice the misstakes and the missleads.

4.So what? You mean you're only mature if you pay? I know tons of kids that see a game and make their parents buy a membership for them then fuck everything up and make thier parents buy a new one just to fuck up again. A mature person wouldn't even bother to pay for a game when he can just hack it.

5.Wow an other version of the rumor... One seconds I hear they didn't dconither which to get, the next seconds I hear that they bought it, a few moments later I hear that they're gonig for a diffrent engine... Well which one is it? I haven't seen a thread so far where anyone would admit to buying anything.

6.Everything from Serious Sam The First Enouncter to Grand Theft Auto 4 has been cracked moments after their release. And some games were cracked even before their retail release.

Offtopic:
GTA4's MP sucks because it has a currently unbreakable ping limit
if it exceeds 25 you get kicked fro mthe server, even if it's your own
for me that is a compelete waste of money because even playing with
those that live where I live my ping is 100 (at game start) and
5 (at normal gameplay), my fiend's ping goes from 300 (at the start)
and keeps jumping from 20 to 40. That means we can't play.
What ever you do - DO NOT BUY GTA4, you can get the same thing
even with less bugs if you crack it.

[Sniperdog]

Just a note on the frame rate of that vid... I'm gonna guess that it was pre-calculated... (I may be wrong) so i doubt it really made all those calculations on the spot.

[Vakaris]

Just a note on the frame rate of that vid... I'm gonna guess that it was pre-calculated... (I may be wrong) so i doubt it really made all those calculations on the spot.

So you mean it woul go even worse with calculation in progress? Further adamantium to my posts...

[AquaticPenguin]

1.But the object is heavyer with sise and it has a bigger outline, it rolls slower, yes, but it rolls faster, that they failed to understand. I hate it when people without even the basic knoledge of physics try to make game-engines...

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say but to me the physics looked like it was working fine. And the physics is very complex especially considering it has to be working in a network as well.

2.You can get more frames for the ammout of stres you give to the engine by just using the CryTec engine, it doesn't mow down frames like a batalion of gazzels mows down grass for each little new object.

The crytec engine is very heavily optimised and specifically for games. Fair game it may run better in the CryEngine, but I don't think CryTec are about to start handing out licenses to it.

3.A lot of members, twice the misstakes and the missleads.

An overall negative view on the engine, I don't think people will shell out $350 tasty delicious dollars just to mislead a new guy. And it's a lot more support than you'll get anywhere else.

4.So what? You mean you're only mature if you pay? I know tons of kids that see a game and make their parents buy a membership for them then fuck everything up and make thier parents buy a new one just to fuck up again. A mature person wouldn't even bother to pay for a game when he can just hack it.

By this I mean that the people who are likely to pay to play are going to be more commited and mature than a one time buy. I never said you're only mature if you pay.

5.Wow an other version of the rumor... One seconds I hear they didn't dconither which to get, the next seconds I hear that they bought it, a few moments later I hear that they're gonig for a diffrent engine... Well which one is it? I haven't seen a thread so far where anyone would admit to buying anything.

PR2 R&D #2 - more wacky stuff - Project Reality Forums
that link shows some experiments they have done on it, considering the only way you can use the engine with a license I'm fairly sure they have a license.

6.Everything from Serious Sam The First Enouncter to Grand Theft Auto 4 has been cracked moments after their release. And some games were cracked even before their retail release.

A reasonable point, but are the majority playing on cracked games? no... and will the people cracking the games use their time to crack a small cult indie game or will they try and gain popularity doing a larger crack?

You seem to be on two-sides, on one you think it will flop and no one will play... On the other you think that people will crack it and steal it... The game will only be cracked if it becomes very popular, and if it's cracked it will most likely be the minority who are stealing it.

So you mean it woul go even worse with calculation in progress? Further adamantium to my posts...

Actually It uses Physx which is a physics simulator on many Nvidia GPUs so it is real-time.. They also reference a demo so I'm guessing it could be downloaded before.

And Vakaris, you're making quite a lot of assumptions with very little evidence.

[Vakaris]

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say but to me the physics looked like it was working fine. And the physics is very complex especially considering it has to be working in a network as well.



The crytec engine is very heavily optimised and specifically for games. Fair game it may run better in the CryEngine, but I don't think CryTec are about to start handing out licenses to it.


An overall negative view on the engine, I don't think people will shell out $350 tasty delicious dollars just to mislead a new guy. And it's a lot more support than you'll get anywhere else.


By this I mean that the people who are likely to pay to play are going to be more commited and mature than a one time buy. I never said you're only mature if you pay.


PR2 R&D #2 - more wacky stuff - Project Reality Forums
that link shows some experiments they have done on it, considering the only way you can use the engine with a license I'm fairly sure they have a license.


A reasonable point, but are the majority playing on cracked games? no... and will the people cracking the games use their time to crack a small cult indie game or will they try and gain popularity doing a larger crack?

You seem to be on two-sides, on one you think it will flop and no one will play... On the other you think that people will crack it and steal it... The game will only be cracked if it becomes very popular, and if it's cracked it will most likely be the minority who are stealing it.



Actually It uses Physx which is a physics simulator on many Nvidia GPUs so it is real-time.. They also reference a demo so I'm guessing it could be downloaded before.

And Vakaris, you're making quite a lot of assumptions with very little evidence.

I have enouth evidence to judge.

nVidia bought PhysX from Ageia when it went bankrobed. The company released a game called CellFactor Refolution, it was sopose to be a demonstration of what the card is capabale of. Turns out they made the game virtualy lower the FPS to 5-10 unless you have bought their card. Their card actualy did almost nothing so I think it's safe to say PhysX part of nVidia is a pile of ****.

About the "two sides" you misunderstood me, I said there will not be many (officiual) players left, most will go paly the free cracked version. Since PR is already popular and the rumor of pay-to-play is spreading I think hackers are lurking behind the corner even now.

Oh and... 350$... Is not that big of a value...

Add: You do not need to buy something to try it, maybe they have a trial version...

[AquaticPenguin]

I have enouth evidence to judge.

nVidia bought PhysX from Ageia when it went bankrobed. The company released a game called CellFactor Refolution, it was sopose to be a demonstration of what the card is capabale of. Turns out they made the game virtualy lower the FPS to 5-10 unless you have bought their card. Their card actualy did almost nothing so I think it's safe to say PhysX part of nVidia is a pile of ****.

PHYSX
There's three videos and a list of some games that use physx there.

YouTube - NVIDIA PhysX Fluid Demo
There's examples of what the physx is capable of. Also, the number of game titles using physx demonstrates that it is in fact very powerful
Batman: Arkham Asylum, Race Driver:GRID, mirror's edge etc...

So your evidence is basing everything on one game that was made before nvidia bought Ageia with no example or link or any proof of your statements whatsoever.

About the "two sides" you misunderstood me, I said there will not be many (officiual) players left, most will go paly the free cracked version. Since PR is already popular and the rumor of pay-to-play is spreading I think hackers are lurking behind the corner even now.

Yes but you're basing this on many assumptions
1) That someone would crack a small time indie game, this would be a possibility if it was very popular but the whole nature of the game suggests that it's not for the masses.
2) That people would refuse to pay... Yes GTA4 has been cracked, but I don't see the majority of the players running cracked versions, equally COD4 has been cracked, but I don't see everybody running cracked versions (yes I know there are cracked servers but in proportion to uncracked they're almost insignificant). Bf2 has been cracked and yet the majority of the players are still legitimate.
3) "I think hackers are lucking behind the corner even now" contains no sentiment of truth and you have no proof or evidence so you're basing it on your own opinion.

Oh and... 350$... Is not that big of a value...

Ok, so if $350 doesn't seem like a large amount of money what is your problem with pay-to-play?

Add: You do not need to buy something to try it, maybe they have a trial version...

They do have a trial version but it doesn't cover the extent of the examples
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... 2-faq.html
The faq covers quite a few of the topics, the overall tone of the post suggests they have got the engine.

I think I should probably stop arguing now since it's drifting very off-topic and I'm not sure the mods will be happy

[Vakaris]

PHYSX
There's three videos and a list of some games that use physx there.

YouTube - NVIDIA PhysX Fluid Demo
There's examples of what the physx is capable of. Also, the number of game titles using physx demonstrates that it is in fact very powerful
Batman: Arkham Asylum, Race Driver:GRID, mirror's edge etc...

So your evidence is basing everything on one game that was made before nvidia bought Ageia with no example or link or any proof of your statements whatsoever.


Yes but you're basing this on many assumptions
1) That someone would crack a small time indie game, this would be a possibility if it was very popular but the whole nature of the game suggests that it's not for the masses.
2) That people would refuse to pay... Yes GTA4 has been cracked, but I don't see the majority of the players running cracked versions, equally COD4 has been cracked, but I don't see everybody running cracked versions (yes I know there are cracked servers but in proportion to uncracked they're almost insignificant). Bf2 has been cracked and yet the majority of the players are still legitimate.
3) "I think hackers are lucking behind the corner even now" contains no sentiment of truth and you have no proof or evidence so you're basing it on your own opinion.


Ok, so if $350 doesn't seem like a large amount of money what is your problem with pay-to-play?


They do have a trial version but it doesn't cover the extent of the examples
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... 2-faq.html
The faq covers quite a few of the topics, the overall tone of the post suggests they have got the engine.

I think I should probably stop arguing now since it's drifting very off-topic and I'm not sure the mods will be happy

You'll find the mods are never happy when I'm arround, not like our chat is their buisness.
Without a little chaos there can be no true peace, just like without predators the ecological cycle would break.
The problem I have with pay-to-play is the psycological interferance, you pay and your mind kinda forces you to play untill the payed time is finished, that's why there are so many WoW addicts. I preffer one time pay, that way you can play and quit playing and comeback again later when ever you want.
Ageia PhysX engine is not powerfull at all it's just a coverup, CellFactor Revolution virtualy drops FPS and FRAPS proves that, it says the game's runing at over 120 FPS while the game it self is telling that it's runing on 5.
There are MORE cracked GTA4 players then legal, you just fail to unerstand it.
As for the "small indie game", it's alrad got the MOTY award, it's not so small when you think about it, only problem it lacks the comunity to go.
Actauly I wouldn't be surprised if you were one of the hiijackers, any of us could be, espeialy those that claim that there are none, same was with the inquisitors.
Also mirrors edge's physics are not good at all and the destructive enviroment is overrated, I've seen Half-Life 2 physics perfom better then that, then remembering the awful coloring in the game I'm not surprised why I didn't pay for it.

[HeliaXDemoN]

The explosions cause damage on terrain??

[Zimmer]

An example of a indie game who have done really well and has made a impression and also is targeting a smaller community is mount and blade, and if PR tries to hold the same attitude to gameplay and realism and really get a good game out of the C4 engine I dont see how PR2 cant be a success ala Mount and blade. And they litteraly started out with no community at all.

[AquaticPenguin]

The explosions cause damage on terrain??

The terrain is voxel terrain so it should be possible to edit it in real-time. So perhaps large explosions ala 2000lb JDAM could make a crater in the ground. It depends on how well it can cope over networks. The terrain does give the advantage that you can have overhangs which I imagine could be destructible.


I think a good example of indie game success is Audiosurf which has thousands and thousands of players around the world and that was just a lone developer with a good idea.

[Zimmer]

BUt as I said in a post some pages back, all this discussion about price and problibly also engines are meaningless as I assume the devs have gone through alot of the engines they had as alternatives. To even begin discussing how the manhour laid down in the game should be priced is just stupid to even discuss here as we dont know how the game will look and if it even will be any good.

[Leopardi]

Does the BF3 engine even exist?

Yes.PAX 2009: Battlefield 1943 producer talks lack of DLC

[TGT]

What about pressing Q and then new options like:
Move up
Wait
Hold here
Suppresing Fire
Fire at will etc..