Questions on collaborators (Insurgency)

[Dr.Roy.Mustang]

Hi guys, I had read about the manual on collaborators in insurgency... But I still do not understand why USMC still shoot us...

Now there are a few question I want to ask. First, in normal cirmcumstances when the Collaborator is running, do the USMC have to right to open fire?

I suppose is a no... Then if in that case, other than "restraining" them, if they chuck rocks at us, are we still allow to shoot them!? If yes... My answered been answered... If no please read on...

If we still can't shoot them, can we hurt them? Then it is obvious that he will bleed... If he takes out a medic pack to heal himself, can USMC still shoot them!?

Otherwise, after healing... Can we still shoot them? I heard that we can open fire on them in the 30 sec timeframe after it took out a medic pack or rocks...

Any responses?

PS: I had done a search... Nothing much showed up...

[arty_bomber]

I think as you say, if the collaborator uses his medic kit the Americans have the right to fire. Which doesn't feel very "reality" to me .

[[FC]Freddie]

what's the penalty if you are on the same team and kill a collaborator so he can't be captured ?

[goguapsy]

Freddie;1136189']what's the penalty if you are on the same team and kill a collaborator so he can't be captured ?

probably an average TK penalty (longer spawn as insurgent I think).
But... why don't you kill the USMC?

[[FC]Freddie]

But... why don't you kill the USMC?

I'm sure I would but I was more interested in if there was a set penalty - it could be an accidental TK also.
My guess it would be the same as a collaborator suicide.

[Mad-Mike]

Lets just say, There is no point going Civilian anymore there are alot of ppl that are trigger happy and dont want to play pr realistic. I mean would a Brit soldier shoot a civilian for no reason? or even if hes going up ladders or using binocs or a hook NO he wouldnt. He would be out of the forces straight away and in jail for murder!
Civilian is a great kit, it would be nice to walk around watching the action without gettin shot at all the time!
The punishment for killing civilian's in pr is perfetic in my opinion it should be more strict and the player who kills them should die instant them selves.

[GotItFromEbay]

I remember one time I was playing on Falluja. I was providing over watch while my squad cleared some buildings. Our Humvee gunner spots a guy running across the main road, I quickly glass the main road with my binos and discover that it's just a civi. So I tell him that it's only a civi and the humvee gunner just lights him up. -_-

IMO, there needs to be harsher penalties for killing a civilian unless they directly aided a member of the insurgency team.

[Silly_Savage]

Here are my answers from this thread. I hope this helps.

I'll try my best:

1. Rocks do not count as a weapon, even if they throw them at you. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

2. If you select a weapon, even without firing it, you are a target. You can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

3. If you get on any ladder, or a grapple, you are a valid target. You can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties. I believe the grapple is considered a "vehicle", which means that you can continue to be engaged 60 seconds after "getting out" of it. Although the ladder is not considered a "vehicle", you can still be killed while on it without the offender suffering any penalties. However, because it is not considered a "vehicle", once you get off of it, you, as a civilian, cannot be killed without the offender suffering penalties.

4. Binoculars do not count as a weapon, even if you are looking through them. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

5. Cell phones do not count as a weapon. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

6. As stated earlier, I believe the grapple is considered a "vehicle". Thus, you can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering any penalties. This includes the time you are on it and 60 seconds after getting off as well. If you merely have the grapple selected, this does not count as "entering a vehicle". You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

7. I do not believe you can engage civilians with explosives if they are outside the ROE without suffering the penalties. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

8. It all depends on the state in which you die. If you bleed out while you're still within the ROE, then there are no penalties for the offender. However, if you bleed out while outside of the ROE, then I believe there are penalties for the offender.

I'll try and be a bit more concise. The only times you can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering any penalties is when you, as a civilian: enter a vehicle/ladder/grapple (see #3 for more details), select/use/pickup any kind of weapon* (see above for items not considered "weapons"), get ran over by a vehicle, select/use any medical equipment* (medic bag/epipens), or are arrested (restrainer/shot with a shotgun using slugs).

* The same rules from the grappling hook apply to the medical equipment and weapons. That is, once you are done using them and switch items, you are still able to be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties 60 seconds after using them.

** If you pick up a different kit with a weapon in it, you are no longer considered a civilian and can be shot without the offender suffering the repercussions. If you switch to back to the civilian kit after having picked up another kit with a weapon, you must wait 60 seconds before you are deemed a "civilian". In those 60 seconds, you are within the ROE and can be killed without penalties.

I hope this answered some of your questions.

[KasperX]

Ya, well I just avoid CIVIS altogether. I'm not sure if they did work on the CIVI ROE since 0.86, but the whole ROE system while straight forward on paper wasn't so clear cut in game.

There was one time when myself and my SL saw a CIVI running in circles beside a building. I told my SL I smelt a trap, so we waited and sure enuff a squad of 4 were on a rooftop. We took out the squad leaving only the CIVI left. MY SL went to try and restrain him ( I was a medic so I stood in cover/overwatch ), but the CIVI climbed a ladder and just stood there. Obviously my SL couldn't restrain him on a ladder so we waited a bit. After a quick little bit , I had a bad feeling that the enemy squad was coming back to flank the two of us. My SL and I debated whether or not to engage the CIVI b/c time was ticking. I remembered the ROE saying that if a CIVI is climbing a ladder, he was fair game. I couldn't wait anymore and was pretty upset at the whole situation so I popped a hot round in the CIVI's head...........and I was punished. I know I know...we should have just left him...but that was total BS. My emotions got the better of me.

From that moment on, I never shot another CIVI willingly...sometimes the 50 cal has a mind of its own. Have they fixed this issue yet? Or is a CIVI still safe on a ladder as long as he does not motion to climb up or down?

Kasp

[Psyrus]

Personally I find that collaborators act with a false sense of impunity due to the old rules where no shooting was allowed, and with the new rules there is a misunderstanding about when they can and cannot be shot. I also am really happy that the devs made arresting any insurgent worth the +10 points of intel, as I'm now juggling (and raging when I miss and die) with the idea of going for the arrest on an unsuspecting insurgent.

There is one aspect that I feel bad about taking advantage of, but as it stands, you can shoot a collaborator (in the legs for example) so that he's bleeding, and simply pretend to lose interest while he finds somewhere to heal, you can be sure the next time you see him he'll be within the engagement 60 second rule, and he can be popped without penalty. I'm not sure that there's any way around this downside, but then again I haven't looked at the various triggers etc.

Because normal insurgents are worth the same as collaborators now, I've just told my squad to ignore the obvious bait on several occasions, and I'd wager that the situation is at least a tad more realistic than in previous versions.

[chuckMFd]

With all due respect civilian spawn time is ****. They should have the normal spawn time.

Insurgents use civilians as human shields in real life so shouldnt there be more civilians in game??

Currently the spawn penalty for civilian is ridiculous and I think the majority of players willing to play that role would agree.

Bring back the GREEN SHIRTS for the civilians, it makes way more sense. This would solve most of the problems with the trigger happy noobs that shoot first and ask questions later.

[Dr.Roy.Mustang]

Here are my answers from this thread. I hope this helps.

You keep saying civilians... Engage you... Who is "you"? As a collaborator or as a USMC soldier???

[Dr.Roy.Mustang]

With all due respect civilian spawn time is ****. They should have the normal spawn time.

Insurgents use civilians as human shields in real life so shouldnt there be more civilians in game??

Currently the spawn penalty for civilian is ridiculous and I think the majority of players willing to play that role would agree.

Bring back the GREEN SHIRTS for the civilians, it makes way more sense. This would solve most of the problems with the trigger happy noobs that shoot first and ask questions later.

Yah, so true. If they drop down spawn time by lots, I don't mind to be a target to attract goodies for my fellow Taliban comrades .

[Silly_Savage]

You keep saying civilians... Engage you... Who is "you"? As a collaborator or as a USMC soldier???

It's clearly stated that, "you" is referring to yourself, as in a civilian.

[Gore]

Civi killer?

[Dr.Roy.Mustang]

Since 0.9 came out. I guess there have been a few updates:
Quoting:
# Tweaked civilian/collaborator rules: (a) no extra spawn penalties unless you get arrested; (b) civilian cannot be run over by vehicles anymore without penalty; (c) getting on a rope/ladder no longer qualifies the civilian/collaborator to be killed; (d) using a medic bag no longer qualifies the civilian/collaborator to be killed
# Updated meinsurgent unarmed kit to be considered civilian/collaborator and follow the same rules
# Updated the messages you'll recieve as a civilian/collaborator on these occasions: (a) civie was arrested; (b) civie was shot outside the ROE; (c) civie was shot inside the ROE

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. You have gave me a start in understanding how to capture the collaborators.

Special thanks to Silly_Savage for the long clear explanation.

Thread CLOSED

[chuckMFd]

You forgot civies can be killed with the shotgun, it counts as an arrest. This was put in for situations were the civie can't be hit with the zipties; laddder, water, grapple, rooftop.

[Spearhead]

I'll try my best:

1. Rocks do not count as a weapon, even if they throw them at you. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

Right.

2. If you select a weapon, even without firing it, you are a target. You can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

Right.

3. If you get on any ladder, or a grapple, you are a valid target. You can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties. I believe the grapple is considered a "vehicle", which means that you can continue to be engaged 60 seconds after "getting out" of it. Although the ladder is not considered a "vehicle", you can still be killed while on it without the offender suffering any penalties. However, because it is not considered a "vehicle", once you get off of it, you, as a civilian, cannot be killed without the offender suffering penalties.

Wrong. As of 0.9 you CAN use the grapple and ladders without triggering the ROE. But real vehicles still trigger the ROE.

4. Binoculars do not count as a weapon, even if you are looking through them. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

Right.

5. Cell phones do not count as a weapon. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

Right.

6. As stated earlier, I believe the grapple is considered a "vehicle". Thus, you can be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering any penalties. This includes the time you are on it and 60 seconds after getting off as well. If you merely have the grapple selected, this does not count as "entering a vehicle". You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

Wrong. As of 0.9 you CAN use the grapple and ladders without triggering the ROE. But real vehicles still trigger the ROE.

7. I do not believe you can engage civilians with explosives if they are outside the ROE without suffering the penalties. You cannot be engaged as a civilian without the offender suffering penalties.

Right.

8. It all depends on the state in which you die. If you bleed out while you're still within the ROE, then there are no penalties for the offender. However, if you bleed out while outside of the ROE, then I believe there are penalties for the offender.

Right.

The correct info for version 0.9 is:

The civilian can be killed without penalty within 60s of him:

1. Using/selecting any real weapon (not stones)
2. Using/selecting resuscitate or epipen
3. Being inside a vehicle (grapple hooks and ladders are NOT vehicles)
4. Spawning into the game world or picking up a kit

Outside of these rules civilians may not be killed in any other way than by using melee attacks (slot 1 weapons) or shotguns.

Addendum: The unarmed kit used by the middle eastern insurgents uses the same rules as the civilian collaborator kit.