'Unguided' Hellfire Missiles

[Sparatan117]

From the Video, 2:12.


Not sure how the hellfire works, but apparently it's not like the Vikhr.

The FCR is what your looking for. The Apache's radar system sends the target data to the missile who then spins some sort of sensor at the front of the missile which then guides it to its target. No smoke screen or flares can deviate it. Your only hope is to make the missile run into a building and even then you'll probably level that building

That's a lot more than I thought. It's fifteen degrees in either direction or total? Currently I just set mine to three degrees of elevation and seven degrees of depression for a total of ten degrees. It made attacking ground targets a hell of a lot easier since you no longer had to dive so steeply to do it.

I was talking with a Dev earlier with this. its 15 degrees total but its +15 degrees. The pods sit parallel with the ground and the rotor blades, the actual cockpit is at an up angle

[Hunt3r]

From the Video, 2:12.

The Vikhr ATGM uses "a beam riding system, which is quite a bit different than a system like the Hellfire for the Apache, which homes in on a laser spot. Rather, the Vikhr kind of rides down the laser beam from the launch aircraft to the target..."

Not sure how the hellfire works, but apparently it's not like the Vikhr, so as far as I can tell your video is a moot point since it doesn't apply to any aircraft not using the Vikhr ATGM system, or any other similar system...

Yes, but the fact is that lasing is not done manually in any attack helicopter, unless the gunner himself wants to rerange a target. Guiding the target into the tank is always automatic, this is something done by the helicopter itself.

This applies for the Cobra and Apache A variant. The Apache Longbow with it's FCR uses Millimeter wave radar for guidance if Hellfire Longbows are equipped.

[CAS_117]

From the Video, 2:12.

The Vikhr ATGM uses "a beam riding system, which is quite a bit different than a system like the Hellfire for the Apache, which homes in on a laser spot. Rather, the Vikhr kind of rides down the laser beam from the launch aircraft to the target..."

Not sure how the hellfire works, but apparently it's not like the Vikhr, so as far as I can tell your video is a moot point since it doesn't apply to any aircraft not using the Vikhr ATGM system, or any other similar system...

I don`t really see the difference that makes.

[Hunt3r]

I don`t really see the difference that makes.

There really is none though. The difference is that one looks forward for scattered laser, the other looks backward for laser guidance.

Beam riding means you have to be dead on (as shown in the Black Shark video), and you can't have an SL lase and you just fly in already locked and you just fire.

SALH is basically nullified if you deploy smoke. SALH works though, and it's what we'll be using for quite a while. The Apache is basically a type of SARH, if I'm not mistaken. Bounce an extremely narrow radar beam off something, Hellfire tracks that.

I'd wonder if a SALH based system can actually still guide a missile at 23 km. That's what the JAGM is supposed to do, and the Cobra used SALH, so..

[DankE_SPB]

Vikhr guiding way should be less vulnerable to smoke countermeasures, imo thats all the difference

[Solid Knight]

The Vihkr requires line of sight while some variants of the Hellfire do not. There's a big difference right there. One allows you to fire over cover or fire and forget and the other does not.

[CAS_117]

Vikhr guiding way should be less vulnerable to smoke countermeasures, imo thats all the difference

Well we'd need smoke countermeasures for it to become a factor. I think BF2 does this but I really don't understand the coding of it yet.

[Solid Knight]

The smoke just breaks the lock in the same manner that having the vehicle move behind an obstacle breaks a lock. The smoke itself is considered an obstacle. The lock is determined in game by line of sight. You lose line of sight when the smoke is deployed.

[Cp]

We don't have vikhrs in PR and the only beam riding missile* we have in PR is the one fired from the BMP-3.
the rest are either semi active laser homing or wire or radio SACLOS guided.

The only radar guided air to ground missile in PR is the brimstone missile on the tornado.


*Unless the A-129 for some reason is armed with HJ-9

Edit: the starstreak missile on the stormer AFV is also an beam riding missile, though it lacks the ground to ground capability in PR that it should have.

[chrisweb89]

The CA way of guiding missles should definetly be implemented. You can fire and hit moving targets like you can in PR or you could dive down at a target and only change the missles direction when you want, so if the helicopter does a big turn the missle won't follow unless you click down.

[Hunt3r]

The CA way of guiding missles should definetly be implemented. You can fire and hit moving targets like you can in PR or you could dive down at a target and only change the missles direction when you want, so if the helicopter does a big turn the missle won't follow unless you click down.

Or just a lock system would be fine...

And when I mean use the Black Shark as an example, I mean it's ability to track a target you designate, and the helicopter will simply lase the target if you fire a hellfire.

Maybe just right click on a tank or something and it will instantly track it unless you move too far off.

And by the way, I think "unguided" Hellfires are really just TOWs...

[Solid Knight]

This is all you can do with a missile in BF2:

Laser-guided/Heat-seeking*:
Lock on a target and have the missile seek said target
Fire a missile that is unlocked and have it seek the closest target even if said target is friendly**

Wireguided:
Fire a missile that goes where the center of the camera is pointing.

TV guided:
Fire a missile where the cursor is clicked (primary fire only).

There is no method to disconnect target acquisition from seeking thus you cannot set a target with one button and fire with another. I spent a long time trying to make it so wire-guidance/tv-guidance/laser-guidance only occurred when you held down the primary or secondary fire button but as it turns out there is no working code that accomplishes that task. I suspected the unused targetInput method would allow this but that method appears to be disabled by the engine or is incomplete and thus not functioning.

*Laser guided and heat seeking work exactly the same the only difference is the target object type/template.

**Technically the missile acquires a lock for itself at launch which is why you'll occasionally have your missile seek a target that you didn't lock. The way they coded it is a bit retarded; even though you have a lock the missile will seek the closest target that it can detect. This is typically why missiles that have a wide lock angle will seek targets that the player hasn't selected. It's a crappy situation because if you narrow the lock angle of the missile it won't detect any targets but if you widen it you're more likely to hit something other than what you've locked. Piss poor design is what this is.

[Hunt3r]

This is all you can do with a missile in BF2:

Laser-guided/Heat-seeking*:
Lock on a target and have the missile seek said target
Fire a missile that is unlocked and have it seek the closest target even if said target is friendly**

Wireguided:
Fire a missile that goes where the center of the camera is pointing.

TV guided:
Fire a missile where the cursor is clicked (primary fire only).

There is no method to disconnect target acquisition from seeking thus you cannot set a target with one button and fire with another. I spent a long time trying to make it so wire-guidance/tv-guidance/laser-guidance only occurred when you held down the primary or secondary fire button but as it turns out there is no working code that accomplishes that task. I suspected the unused targetInput method would allow this but that method appears to be disabled by the engine or is incomplete and thus not functioning.

*Laser guided and heat seeking work exactly the same the only difference is the target object type/template.

**Technically the missile acquires a lock for itself at launch which is why you'll occasionally have your missile seek a target that you didn't lock. The way they coded it is a bit retarded; even though you have a lock the missile will seek the closest target that it can detect. This is typically why missiles that have a wide lock angle will seek targets that the player hasn't selected. It's a crappy situation because if you narrow the lock angle of the missile it won't detect any targets but if you widen it you're more likely to hit something other than what you've locked. Piss poor design is what this is.

Then despite the most likely annoying bugs with BF2's lock system, we should go with heat seeking. And also TV guided mode, but without the camera on the missile. Use up the weapon slots for the gunner!

And having both TV and heat seeking mode would be a huge improvement compared to the current system anyhow.

[CAS_117]

It's a crappy situation because if you narrow the lock angle of the missile it won't detect any targets but if you widen it you're more likely to hit something other than what you've locked. Piss poor design is what this is.

Lol... well one solution is to make AGMs firecameradof 1. Add a 1 degree lock angle and a 1 degree track angle and the missile will be able to pick out grandpa tank at a tank family reunion. We're trying it in CA and its working pretty good so far (wipe that look off your face ). Yes I am very much aware that the missile is flying out the center of the screen but it beats team killing a column of Tunguskas because they were between you and a hostile supply truck...

[Hunt3r]

Lol... well one solution is to make AGMs firecameradof 1. Add a 1 degree lock angle and a 1 degree track angle and the missile will be able to pick out grandpa tank at a tank family reunion. We're trying it in CA and its working pretty good so far (wipe that look off your face ). Yes I am very much aware that the missile is flying out the center of the screen but it beats team killing a column of Tunguskas because they were between you and a hostile supply truck...

Well does it work, assuming the pilot is bucking around as best he can?

For now, PR is not about what is technically realistic, it's about whether or not it plays realistically.

That's my take. PR2 is what needs to be made for the weird BF2 limitations to be taken off.

[CAS_117]

Yeah it works pretty good assuming you are experienced with a mouse. Just that up till recently the missiles weren't seeing the targets and just going dumb. Had to compare some of our tank code to it and voila.

[Celestial1]

Vikhr vs Hellfire etc etc

Ignore me, I am failing and spreading inconsistent and untrue information.

:F

[Punkbuster]

I agree with you so much!!
This can be an awesome add on!

[Hunt3r]

Yeah it works pretty good assuming you are experienced with a mouse. Just that up till recently the missiles weren't seeing the targets and just going dumb. Had to compare some of our tank code to it and voila.

Awesome.

So let's try to lobby the devs into at least giving us the tv-missile style ATGM mode and possibly the lock system too.

[CAS_117]

I'm glad you approve. Show your support by being at the test on the 25th.