Machinegun Physics

[Insanitypays]

As most of you already know, the LMGs in project reality are very popular among players due to their rapid firing rate, devistating amount of damage, and also the fact that the BLUFOR's MGs have scopes.

The LMGs are used incorrectly though.
PR:
Players take their machineguns to the roofs of buildings, and they rack up kills by dropping hot metal on their enemy's heads.
Real Life:
Machinegunners set up their weapon as close to the ground as possible and fire, trying to keep the enemy's heads down so that their squad can operate and move around. Most of the kills that they get are from bullets ricocheting of the ground and spreading across a large area.

My point: Instead of having all the rounds hit the ground, you should find a way to make them bounce and do damage. Kind of like how a grenade launcher's grenade bounces off armor (in vanilla BF2).

[Drunkenup]

Probably not possible with the BF2 engine. You'd have to change the projectile to one of like the grenade, but then again, grenade phsyics are pretty primtive and this is probably not achieveable. The current projectile has a little bit of splash damage, not significant but enough to give you a little blood around your screen.

The LMGs have been discussed so many times, and it is planned from another source that one the GPMGs come out the LMGs will be made slightly less accurate when deployed as the M249 isn't laser accurate at 800m's. Sure, the Automatic Rifleman's role is to keep the enemy suppressed, but that doesn't mean he is only supposed to aim around the subject and scare him away.

[alvina]

Good suggestion, I like it, however Red Orchester is using bouncing bullets and it doesnt look very realistic from time to time and I dont know if its possible doing this. However, Ive seen plenty clips from Iraq where SAW gunners deploy themselfs on roofs and I dont know if this action really is needed.

[Insanitypays]

Also thought it would be fun to see someone mess aroud and shoot a wall then shoot themself in PR

[rampo]

The LMGs are used incorrectly though.
PR:
Players take their machineguns to the roofs of buildings, and they rack up kills by dropping hot metal on their enemy's heads.
Real Life:
Machinegunners set up their weapon as close to the ground as possible and fire, trying to keep the enemy's heads down so that their squad can operate and move around. Most of the kills that they get are from bullets ricocheting of the ground and spreading across a large area.

My point: Instead of having all the rounds hit the ground, you should find a way to make them bounce and do damage. Kind of like how a grenade launcher's grenade bounces off armor.

How the salami is that going to help the problem that some 'nilla noobs cant stop going to those roofs and kill off people, remember players are hardcoded

[Cheditor]

Ok two options, You can sit on ground and just supress Or you go on roof and Supress while taking out enemies, you go for option 2. If it allows your squad to move up and also eliminates some of the threat to them, why not do that?

[TheLean]

Where did you get the idea that MG´s are not used on rooftoops in real life?

[Zeno]

failsuggestion is failing

IMO this is one of the wierdest suggestions evar

please lock thread

[Alex6714]

Ricochets are possible, just require alot of work and investigation.

[SomebodySomeone]

Where did you get the idea that MG´s are not used on rooftoops in real life?

Exactly...

[Ninja2dan]

As most of you already know, the LMGs in project reality are very popular among players due to their rapid firing rate, devistating amount of damage, and also the fact that the BLUFOR's MGs have scopes.

Basically, the LMG is going to have a much greater deviation than regular rifles, that's part of the intended design and function of the weapon. The RoF is also part of the weapon's design and purpose. When you combine the high RoF, recoil, deviation, and other factors into play, I hardly see any argument that players are choosing the LMG over rifle for that reason. And the optics on some LMG's are to match modern weapon use and to ensure the LMG can support the squad at the same ranges as the other weapons.

The LMGs are used incorrectly though.
PR:
Players take their machineguns to the roofs of buildings, and they rack up kills by dropping hot metal on their enemy's heads.

This is not an unrealistic tactic. There are two types of MG fire, grazing and plunging. Raining steel onto the enemy would be plunging fire, but you can still have some grazing fire from a rooftop position. Not much, but some.

Real Life:
Machinegunners set up their weapon as close to the ground as possible and fire, trying to keep the enemy's heads down so that their squad can operate and move around. Most of the kills that they get are from bullets ricocheting of the ground and spreading across a large area.

First off, I don't know if you have actually served in the armed forces or even touched an LMG. But real soldiers like those in PR using LMG/AR are going to deploy their weapons from what ever location provides the best field of fire without unnecessary exposure. I had served as an Automatic Rifleman and MG/AMG crewman long enough to have used the M60/M249/M240B, so I'm pretty sure what "real life" soldiers do and don't do. Generally, you will deploy on the ground because you are moving with your squad. But if your squad or fireteam are in a defensive role, taking up positions on a roof is done in real life when necessary.

My point: Instead of having all the rounds hit the ground, you should find a way to make them bounce and do damage. Kind of like how a grenade launcher's grenade bounces off armor.

In "real life", ricochets are very unlikely to cause fatal wounds. Most often, especially with MG/LMG fire, the rounds impacting the ground will have minimal ricochet unless they are striking asphalt/concrete/etc. Don't forget that a ricochet is also going to be lacking most of the velocity and energy, so the wound is probably going to be minor. The exception would be ricochet at very close range and very close to a 0-degree angle.

Your comment about "how a grenade bounces off armor", is that supposed to be your opinion about real-life grenades or those in PR? Grenades with PD or prox fuzes aren't just going to bounce off of armor, unless fired from too close or if the fuze fails/delays. Most often though the round will pop on impact, although the damage done will depend on the armor, warhead, angle of impact, etc.

Also thought it would be fun to see someone mess aroud and shoot a wall then shoot themself in PR

Ricochets are possible, just require alot of work and investigation.

This is in response to all of the other ricochet remarks. Even if they are capable of being done in PR/BF2, I doubt they could be done realistically. You would need to adjust the ricochet depending on all sorts of variations, such as impact angle/velocity, projectile size/type, impact surface, etc.

If you don't take all of those factors into account, that would mean a pistol bullet hitting the ground 800m away would have the same ricochet power as a .50-caliber HMG round bouncing off of a concrete wall at 10m away. And what about surfaces such as wood, where ricochets are very unlikely? Even attempting something like this would be a coder's nightmare, if it is even possible in the first place. So regardless if it's possible, don't expect to see it any time soon.

[Alex6714]

This is in response to all of the other ricochet remarks. Even if they are capable of being done in PR/BF2, I doubt they could be done realistically. You would need to adjust the ricochet depending on all sorts of variations, such as impact angle/velocity, projectile size/type, impact surface, etc.

If you don't take all of those factors into account, that would mean a pistol bullet hitting the ground 800m away would have the same ricochet power as a .50-caliber HMG round bouncing off of a concrete wall at 10m away. And what about surfaces such as wood, where ricochets are very unlikely? Even attempting something like this would be a coder's nightmare, if it is even possible in the first place. So regardless if it's possible, don't expect to see it any time soon.

Yeah, this is why I said it would require alot of work and investigation. FH2 have got a basic system for their tanks. If someone wanted to do it enough they would I am sure.

[Insanitypays]

I meant how grenades bounce off armor in vanilla bf2

[Acemantura]

I remember an old vbf2 1.2 video of a tank shell bouncing off of armor and hitting a hill. And then using this tactic to one shot kill a tank: Bouncing the shell off of the top front armor and then hitting the turret.

I can only verify that this occured with tank shells and tank armor, however it has been done.

I guess that is for the boys over at [CA], pr's ugly stepsister, for testing and implementing.

Here is the vid

[rofflesnlols]

Real Life:
Machinegunners set up their weapon as close to the ground as possible and fire, trying to keep the enemy's heads down so that their squad can operate and move around. Most of the kills that they get are from bullets ricocheting of the ground and spreading across a large area.

I would just like to point out that this picture shows two men climbing a ladder to a roof.

One man is holding a GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun)

Just read Ninja2Dan's post.

[Mutherpucker]

actually, I find kinda stupid to have a scope mounted on it, like, it's too damn good now

[Sirsolo]

I greatly disagree.
The physics need to be improved in the sense where the gun recoils when you crouch or stand.

This killcount thing just needs to be fixed with a considerably lower damage per bullet than what it is.

I have many problems with the LMGs, as they are more like lazer-beams than guns.

[Bob_Marley]

Folks, theres a reason that in real life, broadly speaking at least, what wins firefights are MGs and HE projection capability.

Your squad's SAW fires the same round as the issue rifle, but it does so from a much larger magazine, from a platform designed for sustained automatic fire, usually from a supported position. The idea is simple, you don't need accuracy (in fact, up to a certain extent you don't want accuracy) because you have firepower. The job of the squad machinegun is to keep the bad guy's heads down and blow them off if they're stupid enough to stick them out. Which is what the SAW currently does very well in PR

actually, I find kinda stupid to have a scope mounted on it, like, it's too damn good now

When it comes to killing people before they kill you there is no "too damn good", especially not when the opposition have the same capabilities you do (like in PR). Since its introduction the section/platoon MG has been at the heart of the section/platoon. Soldiers don't lug around MGs 5 kilos heavier than thier issue assault rifle for fun, niether do thier squad mates carry additional ammo for it because they think it'll be a jolly good laugh, they do it because they need that capability.

Making LMGs how they are in PR is one of the few ways of actually showing just how important support weapons are in modern infantry combat. Reducing damage is just a rediculus idea, its both unrealistic and removes players fear of MGs. If theres a Minimi set up 300 yards down the road, you should be afraid to stuck your head out. If you're not it means you're not being suppressed so the weapon cant do its job.

Think about it, virtually every major development in platoon and section level weapons in the past 200 years has been about giving them something that allowes them to throw more lead or explosive at the bad guys faster. Muzzle loading percussion muskets were replaced with breach loaders, then came self contained cartridges and repeaters, the return of the hand grenade, the LMG, the rifle grenade, the self loading rifle, the automatic rifle, the SMG, the assault rifle...

Disclaimer - I write this with no military experience what so ever.

[Ninja2dan]

Bob_Marley;1195241']
Disclaimer - I write this with no military experience what so ever.

And as someone with military experience, I can say you hit the nail on the head perfectly.



Battle rifles will have their own advantages over the LMG's such as the M249. Not only in real life, but in PR as well. A rifleman can take out a SAW gunner as long as they take those advantages and disadvantages into consideration. War is mostly just a big "Rock-Paper-Scissors" game, aka "The Firepower Triangle". And it's been that way since men first made weaponry.

Here's a good example of the triangle: Sniper beats MG, MG beats Squad, Squad beats Sniper. Or Infantry beats Tank, Tank beats IFV, IFV beats Infantry.


As Bob said, LMG's are not designed to be pinpoint precise. They are actually designed to be imprecise, in that a certain amount of innate deviation is required in order for the weapon to work. Soldiers using LMG/MG/HMG's learn many aspects of the use of their weapon system, and one of the important factors is the "cone of fire".


If you are moving with your squad properly, and you are suppressed by an enemy heavy weapon like the MG, just use your head and think tactics. Smoke, suppress, flank. While that MG has a lot of firepower, it's still only one weapon. Use the terrain to your advantage, and you should be able to either defeat the MG or at least pull back safely and try another route. The same goes for the MG gunner, they need to stick with their squad or have supporting soldiers to watch flanking sectors. You can't play a military game without learning the basic tactics.