New Player Retention and Mentality

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
Sniperdog
Retired PR Developer
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New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Sniperdog »

I believe one of the big issues facing PR nowadays is that with a large influx of new players, we don't have a way to properly integrate them into the rest of the PR Community so they understand how things work in Project Reality, without losing quite a few of them in the process. Lets face it; even if you have read the guide from front to back (which most new players barely do at all), properly learning PR can be a very daunting task that takes quite a while. The two big problems that arise are:

1. The player quits the game out of boredom, frustration, or confusion before ever experiencing what PR is really about.

2: The player stays with the game but takes a very long time to learn simple lessons about how to stay alive and work properly with a squad or the rest of the team because they didn't have many, if any, real mentors helping them learn the ropes.


If you agree; Post any Ideas you may have for how this can be fixed.

If you don't agree; explain why.

(If you don't care; there are plenty of other threads you could be reading right now :P )


Here is the Idea I have that I'd like to share.

NOTE:
On paper this may sound slightly alien to PR as something to implement or even impractical as an idea; but in the end I'm absolutely sure this idea could be both practical and beneficial for the future of PR and I have seen it work in other games before.


Commissioning:

The basic premise is that players who are experienced and mature and would like the opportunity primarily to serve as a trainer for newer players and alternatively to indicate that they are a competent leader in a pubbing server could apply to be an "officer" in PR.

This would not be something automatic (based solely on stats), but rather something you apply for and get either approved or disapproved for. A panel of 6-8 extremely experienced and mature volunteers from various time zones and languages across the PR playing community would review the simple applications to become a PR Officer. Roughly 5-6 months before starting the system the Dev's could initiate private back end stats tracking so that this panel of people could review the stats of the players applying (even the players themselves would not be able to see the stats). Players could include references or an essay or whatever they feel would prove to the panel that they are mature and experienced as a PR player.

Players who apply to this system would understand that; as a Officer in PR they are supposed to be setting an example for the game so any abuse of the title or immature actions can warrant the loss of the rank. If they don't like it; they can simply play as a normal player. There would be a simple system so anyone who notices abuse of rank can simply take screenies and report them to the proper authority.

I want to emphasize that the ONLY reason I see a real NEED for this system is that new players would benefit greatly from having it. Either in the manual near the beginning or in the installer as a picture you could show what the indicator looks like and tell the new player, "Players with this symbol next to their name are volunteer trainers and if you join their squad during a game let them know you are new and they will help you out".

In addition this would also be a nice indicator for experienced players of reliability. eg I would be much more willing to get in a chopper with one of these guys or as a commander or squad leader I would know which squad leaders I can count on.


PROS:

-Helps greatly with training new players and gives them a sense of community
-Good indicator for players which squads they should join
-Will help to show which people you will be able to count on to act maturely as a squad leader, armor crew member, pilot, or whatever
-Stats padding would be impossible/pointless
-Promotion is mostly qualitative
-Can be permanently revoked if abuse is reported; thus providing a good incentive for people to not abuse this


CONS:

-Would require people to volunteer as officers
-Would require a group of 6-8 dedicated guys who are willing to review applications on a consistent basis
-Would probably require some sort of behind the scenes stats tracking to help the panel review applications


Conclusion:

If this were implemented, it of course would not be perfect (nothing is). The biggest demand of this system would be dedicated volunteers, something I believe PR has quite a few of. The system would essentially be very simple as it only adds one single rank into PR. The idea here is not to establish any sort of hierarchy in game, the officers do not get any sort of personal benefit from being an officer, and they cannot get the rank by simply only being good or extremely experienced; assets spawn at normal times for them and essentially they are just regular players with a little bar next to their name. The system would have its own checks and the rank would be thought of as a privilege as opposed to a right for those who have qualified for it.
If you ask "But why?"; I would say that this would be an enormous benefit to the game and it would help it move from something small and only vaguely known in the gaming world; to a game where even the random stranger can come in and become a part of the experience much easier than they can now; provided they are cooperative and somewhat mature. I feel new players right now coming in to the game are often looked down upon when at the same time they don't have any sort of established avenue to learn how to play the game after they have learned the rules from the guide. This would hopefully fix that.


Finally IF you read this idea as a WHOLE feel free to post two things:

1. Do you think this could work? (along with why or why not)
2. Would YOU YOURSELF be willing to be an officer and help train new players and serve as a role model and leader for those learning the ropes? (whether you have the experience is not the relevant question just assume you have reached that level already)
Last edited by Sniperdog on 2009-12-30 09:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Will Stahl aka "Merlin" in the Squad community
Masaq
Retired PR Developer
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Masaq »

We've seen this kind of thing before. People always feel like new players are wrecking gameplay. Usually, those who feel that way are the people who were "wrecking gameplay" for everyone else, about six months previously.

New players come, new players go. Old players go, too. In short, do whatever you can to help new players learn the game - don't tell them to "RTFM n00b" but say "Well, you need the crewman kit to use a tank - and by the way, reading the manual helps". If they tell you to eff off, get them kicked from the server. If they say "Thanks, I'll do that" then invite them into your squad and help 'em learn the game.

In short, several clans (and the R-COM team) provide occasional training - but most importantly is the willingness of regular everyday players to help out new guys who don't have a clue what they're doing.

Adopt a newb.

"That's how it starts, Mas, with that warm happy feeling inside. Pretty soon you're rocking in the corner, a full grown dog addict, wondering where your next St Bernand is coming from..." - IAJTHOMAS
"Did they say what he's angry about?" asked Annette Mitchell, 77, of the district, stranded after seeing a double feature of "Piranha 3D" and "The Last Exorcism." - Washington Post
bigmoose332
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by bigmoose332 »

I'm spurring on quite a heated one in the suggestions forum on this very subject :D

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... lay-3.html
98% of the PR public agree, that I am the sexiest man in this community.
Sniperdog
Retired PR Developer
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Sniperdog »

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Masaq;1218115']We've seen this kind of thing before. People always feel like new players are wrecking gameplay. Usually, those who feel that way are the people who were "wrecking gameplay" for everyone else, about six months previously.

New players come, new players go. Old players go, too. In short, do whatever you can to help new players learn the game - don't tell them to "RTFM n00b" but say "Well, you need the crewman kit to use a tank - and by the way, reading the manual helps". If they tell you to eff off, get them kicked from the server. If they say "Thanks, I'll do that" then invite them into your squad and help 'em learn the game.

In short, several clans (and the R-COM team) provide occasional training - but most importantly is the willingness of regular everyday players to help out new guys who don't have a clue what they're doing.

Adopt a newb.[/quote]

Precisely right; but bare in mind I am not saying new players are wrecking game-play at all; I am saying that we are losing a lot of potential players because they get lost and/or frustrated early on without having gotten proper mentoring. Of course players get mentoring by just playing the game but I feel often times they run into people who aren't willing to help but rather criticize. It would be nice if there were a way to direct new players to the people who want to help so they don't have to deal with the people who just put the new players down (or just don't know how to teach or explain things well).

I love having new guys in my squad because I get the chance to help show them what the game is really about and how fun it can be. It just stinks that there is no way for people who would be perfectly willing to help people out new players to indicate this to them so they don't have to waste their time with people who don't know what they're doing. I have played games before where they have a system like this built into the game and it almost always proves enormously successful because the only real drawback is finding people willing to train/help newbies (which in community based games like this one are always in great supply).

Basic point is that yes things work just fine right now and afaik they always have, but I believe we could be retaining many more people then we do by putting in something very simple like this. We have the capability, a lot to gain, and not much to lose; why not?

[quote="bigmoose332""]I'm spurring on quite a heated one in the suggestions forum on this very subject :D

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... lay-3.html[/quote]

Your suggestion is a different subject entirely as that is proposing to limit players based on experience level with a different essential motive (improving game-play). I believe that it would be very wrong to bar someone from holding a leadership position based solely on length of time played (or even on any other factor for that matter). I think the only actual change should be a simple icon or something small like that; only to serve as an indicator.
Besides that would then cause people to stat pad time played by going afk in servers.
Last edited by Sniperdog on 2009-12-30 09:16, edited 4 times in total.
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Snook
Posts: 83
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Snook »

I always try to do this (even if I'm not brilliant but that's not the point).

The problem is that half the people i try and teach don't bleeding listen! Probably the mentality of people thinking it is going to be the same as other games, so they think they don't need to listen.

Think this would be a great idea for really experienced players to do this.
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Snazz
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Snazz »

I can't comment on the feasibility of the officer system as that's a technical matter in DEV territory but as a community we should already be open to new players and support them as much as we can.

I strongly agree that many are 'turned off' for numerous reasons, such as simply misunderstanding the mod or having a bad initial experience.

Some I think are destined to due to either their ignorance or false expectations and that's just something I accept, sadly others could of been 'saved' with a bit of guidance and advice.

It's hard enough for me to encourage my gaming friends to play PR, let alone strangers. I've only got a couple of my mates to actually play a decent amount before they eventually went back to COD4, Not revisiting PR since.

Even when I gift BF2 keys to people and help them set everything up, they just don't continue to play. One would only play training mode with me because he was put off by the spawn times in deployment, another mate who was quite good at vBF2 gave up in about 5 mins because he found insurgency boring and didn't know where he got shot from.

My mates know I'm a fussy gamer that doesn't play any old first person spammer and I kind of sell the concept to them, so I get their interest at least at the start. But they tend to change their mind when they realize it's got a steep learning curve, not every moment is exciting and any lack of teamwork can ruin the experience.

It's just not a mainstream kind of game, hence most people won't stick to playing it long enough to get even remotely competent at it.

I could write a massive essay on the subject but it would probably bore you so I'll just reference to an appropriate song:
Solver
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Solver »

PR is a game of extreme quality - which is both good and bad. What I mean is, when PR is good, it's extremely good. However, PR is also extremely bad if you have a bad round. Everyone with a degree of experience knows that - if you happen not to be in a good squad with a competent squadleader and at least somewhat competent members, you won't have a good time. Overall, PR is very much worth it because the occasional bad round that everyone gets, is more than outweighed by the good and great rounds.

The problem of people leaving soon after trying PR is twofold. The first reason is that this isn't a mainstream game, nor is it intended to. It's simply not suitable for players who want constant fast-paced action and get mad if more than a minute passes without a firefight. But, this part of the problem might actually not be a problem - PR isn't intended for those players and they wouldn't enjoy PR anyway. They leave as soon as they understand this isn't the experience they want.

The second part of the problem is the real one. It's about people who want a PR-like experience, try the game, get a bad round to start off with and leave with the mistaken impression that the game is like that. I started off like that myself. I first played PR in 0.4, having tried a variety of games that were supposed to be tactical but lacked any real teamwork. So I spent a couple hours in PR, saw no more teamwork or tactical moves than in other games, and left. I started playing for real with 0.7 (having, by then, forgotten about 0.4). Got very lucky with my first round - I joined a squad with a good SL and tried my best to be useful. Didn't manage to do that but I saw the way PR is supposed to be played and realized that I'm going to enjoy this.

Pretty much the best way to increase player retention would be to make sure they're less likely to get started with bad rounds. Which, of course, is very difficult. Personally, it seems there are fewer bad rounds on servers like TG or T&T - teamwork oriented servers with admins on most of the time. Numerous excellent squad leaders also play on such servers regularly. Maybe the PR manual can encourage these servers? Or have in-game blurbs about them?

OTOH, I'm not sure if the devs want or even should advertise specific servers... but it seems like the only reasonable way to ensure new players have a good time would be to have them play on servers with the lowest percentage of bad rounds.
LyfTaker
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by LyfTaker »

There are many good suggestions here, and a few wild ones (that sound like something I might suggest!).

It would help if us vets could more easily identify the newer players, maybe if they had a "-N" afrter their name or something. And the vets that like to help the newbies? Maybe have a "-T" after their name. That way the newer players would find it easy to identify those who would be willing to help.

Of course, experience brings it's own awards. Y'all know who Military is? He's a near legend on the Hardcore Insurgency server. You ever notice that whenever he leads a squad (and he doesn't lock it) it instantly fills up? You know why? I do. And it makes me wish we had more players like Military.
TF6049
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by TF6049 »

This would be a good way to indicate just exactly what PR's about. For example, there should be "Newb Match" servers which are purely for newbs to the game. As well, perhaps there should be a dedicated "Flight School" server, and each squad can function as it's own classroom. I might not mind doing this on training servers once in awhile, but I don't want to be interrupted on a full-blown server.
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Peeta
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Peeta »

Training servers are shit, simple as that. Never admined, always filled with tards. I believe the training mode should be disabled as an online option and just be used as LAN servers.
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LionRock
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by LionRock »

After all pr is just a game. I'd rather promote the "help your fellow noob" mentality. If you're experiencing frustrating noobiness please tell them how things work etc. It's that simple. Instead of whining how noobs suck, tell them how not to suck. Problem solved. Ofcourse we all like to have a serious game now and then so have a noobfree squad if you wan't that.

But I think we should all just simply help eachother if in need. My 2 cents.
SilentWarrior
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by SilentWarrior »

LionRock wrote:After all pr is just a game. I'd rather promote the "help your fellow noob" mentality. If you're experiencing frustrating noobiness please tell them how things work etc. It's that simple. Instead of whining how noobs suck, tell them how not to suck. Problem solved. Ofcourse we all like to have a serious game now and then so have a noobfree squad if you wan't that.

But I think we should all just simply help eachother if in need. My 2 cents.
Problem aint noobs. (by the definition of beein new to something)

Problem is massive amount of retards a game like BF2 spawns (it wasnt like that back in 2005).

But then again, you have retards all over the place, even vets.

I have played plenty of times with real noobs that did much better than their vet counterparts. They usually listen, and even if they dont know how to use something they are honest about it.

No true noob acts like a retard, because in PR to actually do some damage you have to know the basics and sometimes even more, thats where the problem is.


As for retention, the same solution applies, if we get rid of the retardeness we had atm, we will win more new players, since they will get a friendly welcome, regardless of their ability to do anything.

I normally pug as a pilot, and, i have had plenty of "good" noobs that cant fly for sh1t, but that are honest about it, and willing to learn, we need no more "crash and leave" pilots, those, do not learn anything, and give all pilots a bad name, right now, if you grab an aircraft and you play nice with it, it wont matter, because if AA shoots at you or something happens and you lose it, you will still be flammed, and sometimes banned (yeah you =HOG= tards, we all know about your quick banning shortcuts, if only you did any better :/ with the asset).

This type of noob, doesnt stay noob for long, in 1 or 2 hours they are better than most other "crash and leavers" get in 2-3 months.

Just my 2 hard earned cents.
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Herbiie
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Herbiie »

As a community we need to be softer on new guys, don't expect too much of them, and especially, ESPECIALLY, don't just say "Read the fucking manual".

I've seen that happen so many times - but while the manual may explain many things, it is A) Quite Long, B) Very Boring, and C) Not all that informative. Howabout you just help them out?

Also some people dislike/have trouble reading large amounts of text - they will respond better to 1 to 1 tutoring from a mentor such as their squad leader than to a guy acting as if they are an idiot.

When I joined I didn't read the manual - I started off as a medic because my SL told me to go Medic, I tried to use the Medic Bag Vanilla style (single left clicking) and one of the squad members realised I was having trouble and told me how to use it. It takes all of 5 seconds, which is alot quicker than just saying "Read The Fucking Manual" because then the new players get annoyed.

Also there's usually 55+ players on a server. It takes 1 player to be nice and help them out, it's terrible that as a community hardly anyone wants to help new players in game.

My 5 cents (Yeah you 2 cent cheapskates!) ;)
Paladin Necroman
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Paladin Necroman »

Herbiie wrote:As a community we need to be softer on new guys, don't expect too much of them, and especially, ESPECIALLY, don't just say "Read the fucking manual".

C) Not all that informative. Howabout you just help them out?

Also some people dislike/have trouble reading large amounts of text - they will respond better to 1 to 1 tutoring from a mentor such as their squad leader than to a guy acting as if they are an idiot.

It takes all of 5 seconds, which is alot quicker than just saying "Read The Fucking Manual" because then the new players get annoyed.


Totaly agree
Masaq
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Masaq »

Fighter wrote:Training servers are shit, simple as that. Never admined, always filled with tards. I believe the training mode should be disabled as an online option and just be used as LAN servers.
Yeah, seeing the back of the lousy training servers might be nice ;)

"That's how it starts, Mas, with that warm happy feeling inside. Pretty soon you're rocking in the corner, a full grown dog addict, wondering where your next St Bernand is coming from..." - IAJTHOMAS
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Tomato-Rifle
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Tomato-Rifle »

Fighter wrote:Training servers are shit, simple as that. Never admined, always filled with tards. I believe the training mode should be disabled as an online option and just be used as LAN servers.

I agree, and people tell new players to go to a training server first, but then their first impression of the mod is "This sucks" because of all the tards and boring gameplay that training mode gives you.
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Indian_Clay
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Indian_Clay »

There are a lot of different factors that contribute to newbies leaving PR, but I'm sure three of them are 1) Not understanding the deviation system 2) Not understanding the health system as well as 3) Not understanding suppression and regonizing the difference between bleeding effect and suppresion efect.

Personally, I feel a short, but punctual training tutorial to cover tops like these would be the best corse of action.

Like have the newbie go through a "PR Boot camp" that would show them a few of the major differences between PR and a traditional shooter in reguards to deviation, kit requesting system, and the health system. Sort of like AA basic training or even something as simple as CoD:4 tutorial.

I'm pretty sure the "boot camp" idea has been shot down before due to hardcoding issues.

But to answer your question: I think that is a great idea and I would definitely volunteer if it ever occured. I know the Dev's do training sessions them sometimes and they always seem to fill up quicky.
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Solver
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Solver »

Another possibility would be to include a series of short tutorial vids in the game distribution, giving shortcuts to them on install. They have to be short because otherwise people won't watch them. The main thing would be a generic "Intro to PR" video where a few of the main differences and things to know about PR are concisely mentioned. Essentially: you die easier, you have to work with a squad, vehicles are far more powerful, kits are limited. And emphasize the importance of good comms and VOIP.

Perhaps the one brief video would be enough. Optionally, there could be a few more training videos showing, say, the medic system, the kit request system, etc. Those would be for players that want to learn more before playing - but just one 2-3 minute video that mentions the main points might help.

The manual isn't a 100% solution to all woes. I read it before playing my first round, yet I didn't really grasp some things until I experienced them myself. In particular the PR medic system or asset construction are things that a video can illustrate much better than text.
Oskar
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Oskar »

I actually studied the manual, the forums and other online material and guides right after my first round, because I quickly realised that this game was really difficult. But I guess a lot of people don't do that.
In their case the previously mentioned video tutorials would be great. I found out about the mod when actually searching for a online game like Battlefield, Call Of Duty, but with a lot more focus on the teamwork and tactics.
But for people without that initial mindset video tutorials like that might actually work to have them grasp some of the basic concepts before playing.
Pedz
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Re: New Player Retention and Mentality

Post by Pedz »

I agree with the majority of the people here, in the way that if you do find a "noob"(I do hate that word..) on a server; the best thing to do IS to help, and if you feel you can't help, recommend the manual and don't just shove it in their face.

Another option is to recommend clans to them or send them to the clan page in the PR forums(a link may help to send them to it). This then lets them find a clan where they will most likely get help (providing they go for one that advertises it will help and is not purely an "vets clan"). This way they get the "boot camp" training, but its spread out into a much more diverse field and would not require the amount of administrating the main idea would.
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