Squad or Fireteam?

[terenz]

I recently used some of this as insipration to some "infantry formation training" in my clan. I kept seeing that the number of soldiers in the BF2 squads doesnt exactly match what it seems to be in atleast the US army system.

The "inspiration"
These are basically the five basic army formations. Usually the people are spaced 10 meters apart from each other; so if a grenade is thrown; it lessens casulties and gives a better coverage area in firefights. Of course this isn't a rule set in stone and you have to set the spacing based upon your terrain.

Some other formations are the:

Squad Formation - which is two echelon formations with a teamleader in between the two echelons. The forward echlon is a left echelon and the rear echelon is a right echelon. This makes 9 soldiers in the squad. A squad consists of 6-10 soldiers. A Platoon consists of four squads. The lead person is the point man.



Ranger File - a small squad consisting of 6 - 10 soldiers in a file formation. The team leader is usually the third person in the file. The point man is the lead person.



Platoon Formation - A platoon formation is basically two to four squad formations together. The platoon leader is in the center of the formation, or in a place where he has access and control of the platoon.
---------------------------------

So the question is, should the "squads" with 1-6soldiers be fireteams or are they just squads with the minimum amount of soldiers? just wondering. While the info above might not be official from a military, someone could confirm it. Source: Ron's Training Room

[dtacs]

In Australia we use things like this (and the army calls them sections)

These are just a few that we use but they are EXTREMELY practical in PR as the Army got rid of the 'brick' system which is basically your fireteam system, and just stuck with battlebuddies and MG assistants in sections.



The arrowhead is mainly used to cover wide expanses of open ground, specifically fields and whatnot. Its advantage is it can quickly turn into an extended file (horizontal line) with ease



Staggard files are perfect as all arcs are covered, plus it can become a single file (your 'ranger file' quite quickly. If your squad isn't absolutely retarded it can go the whole highway of Fallujah if need be.

[fStar]

6 men is too small to be a full squad in pretty much all conventional armies I think. In the British army at least a section is 8 men and a fireteam 4, so in those terms it's halfway between.

I think in any terms, if you split an armed group into parts for a manoeuvre, each one is a fireteam. So in PR a squad of 6 men split off from a platoon is both a squad in itself and a fireteam as part of that platoon.

[maarit]

yeah,i wanna also know what pr`s squad is.
cos without rallys 6/6 squad just feels too small in 4km maps.

[terenz]

Thanks, I think this answers my question. I guess id like to know if the BF2 "squad system" is made because with bad knowledge, or if it could or should infact be changed in PR. With the explanation you have fStar, I guess not

[ExoDuUs]

Is it just me that prefers a 4 man fireteam?

I dislike the 6 man squad because its a little to much voip. I like 4 man squads cos it seems just right for moving around the map unspotted and calling out possible targets and relaying info.

Maybe thats just me..

If it was moved up to 9, I dont think id like to fill it, to much gabble and natter..

[Lucke189]

Well, the thing is that our R-DEVs can't change the squad size even if they wanted to. It's hardcoded in the original game.

DICE either didn't know how large squads are in reality, or they did, but chose to make the squads to a size that fitted their game.
They, after all, weren't aiming for a realistic simulator, but were just trying to make an enjoyable shooter.

I personally think that the current squad size work quite well when you only have 64 players on the battlefield. The ultimate thing, however would be to have more than 64 players with larger squads aswell.

[anglomanii]

i think i have to say that in my opinion the 6 man squad is more like a over strength
"fire team". currently (the ADF 2012 infantry program) is moving towards two man "Individual Movement Group or IMG" section strength is also changing a full infantry section could number up to 12 members but as this is still all in the pipeline we wont know for a few years yet.

a few of the latest presentations i have read about the proposed infantry patrol contact response drill for the IMG looks like being.

* respond to contact with immediate rapid fire.

* rapid movement to alternate position no more then a few meters.

* Drop to prone position or into cover.

* move as prone to a secure position or concealment and cover.

* Observe positions of the OPFOR confirm positions with IMG and situational disposition of other individual movement groups.

* commence fire using alternate fire on target procedures.

* coordinate with other Individual Movement Groups and initiate movement under fire proceedures.

* communicate OPFOR situation with other Individual Movement Groups (this also establishes friendly IMG positions).

* Continue effective suppression fire using alternate fire on target procedures.

* Break contact using section recovery procedures unless section leader proceeds with counter orders.

[Pedz]

I do like battlefields squads being of 6, because I think it isn't too large of a maximum that you end up with constant mash of people talking, or too little that you want one more guy to finish your group of kits. Also we have to remember that PR isn't like reality (as hard as it may try) as I'm pretty sure (not certain) that people don't shout out "ahahaha i shot him in the face" or "ahh I'm being chased, awh I died" etc. And there's always mumble ^^

[terenz]

I guess, instead of the usual 6man squads, 4man fireteams with a greater communication, so that 2 fireteams could easily team up, with a squadleader would be better. While thats going to be hard on public servers because of the 9squad limit, it would be easy to implement in the PCW/CWs weve had in my clan. Im sure its worth training for offensives containing that number of soldiers.

While were at it, is there any other crucial formation that hasnt been listed yet?(Apart from column and line)
Thanks alot Anglomanii btw, good to have that info!

[Ninja2dan]

In the real military, a squad is going to be 9+ soldiers depending on the nation. Those squads are also trained and equipped to be capable of splitting themselves up into two separate Fire Teams, again depending on the nation.

The squad limit in BF2 is 6, which in my opinion is a little too small to call it a "squad". But at the same time, the overall players in BF2 is much smaller than a normal Platoon or similar force. So based on the max player limit of BF2, I think the 6-player count for squads isn't so bad. Also remember that the revive/respawn system is meant to simulate additional squad members, so in theory those 6 players are actually a dozen or more.


It would be nice to have larger squads to better replicate realistic infantry tactics, but the max player limit would still make it impossible. Unless we can somehow get the source code or what ever is needed to change this, we're stuck with things as they are now.

[myles]

I think it was 6 for bf2 becasue the maps werent that big.

[Herbiie]

In my eyes a Squad represents a Platoon

The amount of support we have in 4k maps especially cry out a Battalion strength force at least, and if you divide the number of tickets by the number of ppl then times by 6, in some maps a squad could be representing a Company.

[KP]

Many of the same tactics and formations can be applied to four-man patrols instead of larger squads with fire teams. Each patrol will consist of two pairs, and it's those pairs that will fire and maneuvre together in the case of a contact.

[maarit]

In the real military, a squad is going to be 9+ soldiers depending on the nation. Those squads are also trained and equipped to be capable of splitting themselves up into two separate Fire Teams, again depending on the nation.

The squad limit in BF2 is 6, which in my opinion is a little too small to call it a "squad". But at the same time, the overall players in BF2 is much smaller than a normal Platoon or similar force. So based on the max player limit of BF2, I think the 6-player count for squads isn't so bad. Also remember that the revive/respawn system is meant to simulate additional squad members, so in theory those 6 players are actually a dozen or more.


It would be nice to have larger squads to better replicate realistic infantry tactics, but the max player limit would still make it impossible. Unless we can somehow get the source code or what ever is needed to change this, we're stuck with things as they are now.

this kind of confirm that dont take away rallys,just limit the spawns from rally(if is possible)
give rally maybe 6 spawns.
so with rally you can have those extra man for your squad and you can sort off split your squad to fireteams.

[Ninja2dan]

this kind of confirm that dont take away rallys,just limit the spawns from rally(if is possible)
give rally maybe 6 spawns.
so with rally you can have those extra man for your squad and you can sort off split your squad to fireteams.

Personally, I thought the rallies were a bad idea. But they were what we had to work with at the time. The new changes seen in the Delta version of the trial patch is great. It enhances teamwork, especially between squads. It builds up on overall team support and improves the game for those without an experienced squad leader. And it removes a lot of the exploits that were being done with rallies in the past.

In case people haven't noticed, I'm pretty picky when it comes to realism and getting the game oriented around realistic tactics and techniques. The new changes vastly improve the game in my opinion, and with everything that I see being planned for the next few releases, I'm simply amazed at how the game is going to change.

[terenz]

Ninja2dan, if you could help me here I have a question. Is there a movement technique similiar to leapfrogging that is very useful and doable in BF2? And are you able to recommend a website that could explain the battlebuddy system well? greatly appreciated

[Lucke189]

Personally, I thought the rallies were a bad idea. But they were what we had to work with at the time. The new changes seen in the Delta version of the trial patch is great. It enhances teamwork, especially between squads. It builds up on overall team support and improves the game for those without an experienced squad leader. And it removes a lot of the exploits that were being done with rallies in the past.

In case people haven't noticed, I'm pretty picky when it comes to realism and getting the game oriented around realistic tactics and techniques. The new changes vastly improve the game in my opinion, and with everything that I see being planned for the next few releases, I'm simply amazed at how the game is going to change.

Speaking of the new rally systems - Which will you guys implement in 0.9?

The latest one? Delta? Because I liked that one too.

[Keny110]

In The British Army It Realy depends on what you are doing

Depending on diffrent type of patrols

Fighting Patrol - 8 Men

Standing Patrol - 6

Reke Patrol is 3

Cant remeber of the top of my head exactly But they not always that number
depending on wat job or the situation is

terenz- If you were say attacking a target and wanted to leapfrog - split you squad into 2 fireteams

xxx - 000 Starts like this

Fireteam xxx gives covering fire while fireteam 0 runs for about 3 seconds


xxx



------000

Then firteam 0 gives covering fire and x moves forward



-------000




xxx

The process is repeated untill you have finished attacking

Ignore the dashes

[Ninja2dan]

Ninja2dan, if you could help me here I have a question. Is there a movement technique similiar to leapfrogging that is very useful and doable in BF2? And are you able to recommend a website that could explain the battlebuddy system well? greatly appreciated

I think you are asking about the Bounding Overwatch? And I'm not aware of a website that explains the Battlebuddy system. Basically, every soldier is paired up with another soldier from their squad. The person you are paired up with will often depend on your jobs. Usually a Machine Gunner is paired up with a Rifleman for example, so they can share the load of ammo and equipment.

If you want a good reference for tactics, you can try finding an older copy of FM 7-8 in PDF format. I'm sure you can download it from somewhere, or read it on this site.