Deviation needs to be revisited.

[Scot]

I think the fact that deviation needs to be revisited, is quite an obvious point, and I think that till PR stops, it will be being constantly revisited.

I also think that bringing up the TF21 point is pretty pointless, and distracts from what should be the main point of your thread. The 0.8 deviation was made by [R-CON]Wolfe who happened to be in TF21. Much like I am in a clan, if I made a significant change to deviation, would it be branded the DM deviation change? It shouldn't. The deviation is so different from 0.8 that I'm struggling to see how their "influence continues to weigh heavily on Project Reality's development." The only way it does it that their is a significant deviation change from vBF2, apart from that, it's too different.

Finally, on choppers, in real life, I'm guessing you can't just jump in a chopper, turn the engine on and go. I've always assumed that the 30 second warm up time is for the engine to get started and be safe to start flying. You would have to ask an MA, but I'd guess that's pretty realistic, although I could be wrong.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

Seems to happen alot to me atm, I see an enemy approaching, I go prone or kneeling, he comes round the corner and still manages to hit me where I miss.
I am not a new player, I know and understand the deviation system and factor it in, after this thread I am keen to see the 0.9 changelog, because in my experience it seems safer to be running about VBF style than preparing an ambush or generally going hard.

For the helis 'warm up' I am happy if anything the more safeguards to ensure competant, teamwork pilots are flying them the better, thinking about the thread of adding further complications to the start up procedure.

[Donatello]

deviation is quite good for long distances.
BUT in CQC it makes firefites ridiculous.

my tactic: i see enemy and starting to aim, i must be patient now.
of course he goes prone and starting spray and pray things. but i am patient. i wait and wait while bullets flyin nearby my body. then BOOM. i win. distance - 20-50 m.
IRL it will look silly and crazy.

[Sniperdog]

deviation is quite good for long distances.
BUT in CQC it makes firefites ridiculous.

I would take this to be an indicator that the problem isn't the settle time nearly as much as its the inaccuracy threshold; ie the maximum extent to which your gun is inaccurate.

[Rissien]

People who complain deviation is too much now should of seen the .8 deviation. Point blank firefights and opponents would fire entire magaziens without landing a single hit.

[bosco_]

[McCree]

[Smegburt_funkledink]

2008 called, they want their thread back.

[Truism]

H[=ElvishKnight;1227588']People who complain deviation is too much now should of seen the .8 deviation. Point blank firefights and opponents would fire entire magaziens without landing a single hit.

0.85 deviation felt so good compared to 0.8 deviation that at first I thought the Devs had hit the Deviation sweet spot. My opinion jaded as I sobered up to the realisation that it really didn't work.

I had a fraps video on 0.8 Fools Road where I caught a fleeting glimpse of a Militia rifleman as my squad was assaulting Hillstop Estate from the South-Eastern face. He was moving perpendicular to our advance in a Westerly direction, and the last man in the squad and had the Optics Rifleman kit. I immediately turned and chased him through the woods, three times taking a knee next to a tree and firing a controlled burst of 2-3 rounds after at least a second's rest. The shots went so wide that he didn't even register he was the one being shot at.

I continued to chase him until we came to the road, which he had already crossed, he was stationary on the other side by a bush, facing south. Mindful of my previous experience with trying to fire at range, I reloaded as I crossed the road, sprinted towards him and unloaded a whole clip into the crouching form of his back at a distance of 2-3 meters while strafing side to side.

Click, click, click.

I immediately turned sideways to him and started running. He turned and opened fire, a whole clip on auto. I was running perpendicular to him, erratically doubling back on myself. He didn't scratch me. I finished the reloading sequence just as he started to sprint anti-clockwise around me, again in the middle of the road. I let loose another clip, this time in bursts of 7-10 rounds, crouching.

Click, click, click.

By this stage, he was between me and hilltop just a little over 10 meters away. I started to reload, and the whole thing happened again. He was rushing towards me, putting 30 7.69x39mm rounds towards me completely automatic. I was pacing left, out of sprint, hoping to wrong foot him. About five meters away, he ran out of ammo and sprinted in the same direction as me and towards me, just as I finished bringing the weapon to a ready state.

His intentions were pretty obvious at this point as he had his knife out, sprinting towards me at less than 3 meters.

I let out another auto burst as I strafed back to the right. At literally point blank range, the very first shot of the entire firefight hit home, landing square in his face. He ragdolled under my feet.



I downloaded FRAPs purely to record the excesses of BF2 hitreg and PR deviation. I had a lot of entertaining clips like that one, and other things related to deviation failing. There were a lot of sequences of HAT Sniping on American servers, including one where a single HAT sniper had pinned three full squads - 18 people - who were attempting to return fire from the ground in between North and South bunkers on Kashan. The HAT Sniper, who was entrenched in the hills to the East would continually go back and forth to his crate in cover, rearm rockets and bandage himself, killing a few people every time. The entire team was unable to advance on North bunker because of him. It seemed a lot like what being under well sighted mortar fire might be like, except more accurate.

Sadly, I never put any of them on Youtube as I'd originally intended and when my computer died earlier this year they were all lost.

[TheLean]

Many forum members, many highly regarded in this community, say it is not so, but in truth, marksmanship is not like this. In reality, you shoot where you aim, even when walking. Shooting is not as complicated as some say it to be. In reality, although it is true that your heartbeat, breathing, natural wobble, and sway all affect your accuracy. However, it is definitely not to the extent that is depicted in Project Reality.

If you are a dedicated infantryman, then you can say that you can shoot minute-of-badguy out to at least 300 yards. US Marines train to hit targets at 500 yards with standard iron sights in the M16, so accuracy is not an issue.

The people who makes claims that deviation is unrealistic are generally the people who go to the shooting range, lies down on the range and squeeze of a few shots and think to themselves they could that equally well in combat.

Battlefield2 engine cant simulate many things, such as concealment at range, smoke and dust from heavy weapons and bullets covering the battlefied, stress of fear of dying, high pulse, muscle ache, tiredness, dehydration you name it. The bottom line is combat in PR with current deviation is the only game except maybe ARMA series that even slightly resembles real firefights to my knowledge, though I never beeen in a war of course: Real firefights on liveleak is usually just spray and pray: LiveLeak.com - Small Arms Firefight in Fallujah

When I did my national service we had real live fire exercises where the squad is shooting at fake targets popping up at around 200 meters and we got maybe 30 kills for 600 bullets spent or something similar. I cant remember the exact results, and sure we where just recruits, but the point is there where alot more bullets spent than hit. Those targets did not fire back at us so we didnt fear death either (Except the fear of private XXXXXsson who had forgotten to unload his weapon and made an accidental shot in the air once after exercise. :razz

US spends 250 000 bullets for every soldier killed: US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed - Americas, World - The Independent

I used to play the battlefield mod Forgotten Hope 2 for a while but I stopped because I felt the infantry firefights was to arcadish. You just run around, and if you see an enemy just drop to the floor and kill him in one shot even if he is 150 meters away. The machineguns like mg42 are freely available on most maps but rarely used because you can hit the enemies just as well with one shot from the rifles since there is almost no deviation. I can still recommend it anyway. It is a great mod for vehicles and planes, and the maps are beautiful, just dont expect it to be as realistic as PR.


Edit: The only thing I would like to see changed regarding deviation is to give the assault rifles a mode like the LMG undeployed but shouldered so we can hit targets at 20 meters reasonably well while moving. I see no reason the LMG should be more accurate in CQB than normal rifles.

[=Romagnolo=]

I think animations for recoil can be redone so that deviation can completely be removed. I know Chuc is learning and making these animations at the same time, so props to him for all the great work he's done so far, but it is still true that the animations can be improved. The new SAW animations Chuc did and showcased is exactly what PR needs in order to reduce or remove deviation completely.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, Chuc made the recoil animations "shake" and "snap" more, so the shooter is automatically disorientated slightly after every shot.

Totally agreed ! I think the deviation could be reduced by increasing the recoils.

[Truism]

One in 250,000 as far as I know includes in country training. Also, this is a product of the tactics used, not the accuracy of individual soldiers. Suppressive fire uses a lot of ammunition.

Last simulated live fire shoot I did was at the section level and we killed just over 50 targets running perpendicular to us in the open, and a light vehicle at the expense of roughly 250 bullets. That was at 400 meters. We were criticised for not putting enough fire down fast enough.

Edit, also, numbers are generally much lower than reported in the media. The figure thrown around in the Vietnam war for Australian soldiers was one in 200,000, when in actual fact from partol reports and the papertrail at the Q-Store it has been shown that the number was closer to 1:600, but much lower in tasks like ambushes (1:50) and much higher in tasks like assaults (1:1200). All these figures are taken from memory.

The point is that soldiers shoot accurately when the see something, and shoot lots when they're not sure if they did.

[rampo]

Let the thread die! I couldn't stand a chanche in deviation since i just managed to get a hang of it

[Outlawz7]

Totally agreed ! I think the deviation could be reduced by increasing the recoils.

No plural in recoil /grammar nazi

Also the moment recoil gets increased, someone's gonna show up and complain about it saying that the r/l guns don't even recoil this and that much, and we're back to square one.

[AnRK]

2008 called, they want their thread back.

The 90s called and they want their phrase back...

[Gaz]

I just called. I want my paid bandwidth back. Locked.

It's clear that the OP has no comprehension of the stresses of combat shooting, under effective enemy fire, when compared to range shooting. Two vastly different disciplines, if you can even call firing under contact that. He also fails to understand the main application that provides a squad/section/platoon the freedom to decision make and maneuvre under fire. Suppression of the enemy.

People who have been in contact and have applied their application of fire under immensely stressful pressure advise the team of the deviation. Analyise that

[Masaq]

Oh and it's worth mentioning that yes, for the record, TF21 had input into deviation for 0.8xx...

...and that would be because we asked them to help, not because they brainwashed us with their 1337ness