Penalties - do they work at all?

[manligheten]

• All player points to 0
• Minus 100 intel points for the Coalition force OR Discovered cache relocates
• Player killed with 300 second spawn time

That's just silly. It is hard to get int points as it is. Using collaborators as human shield would be a extremely good tactic with those penalties.

The main problem is that you can't tell a collaborator from a militia at range. Of course, the "give up animation" is a big improvement.

I almost always shoot collaborators at sight - hoping they have used the medpack - and always when blufor have 2 known caches. As thread starter postulates, penalties seems broken, making it even less appealing not to shoot.

[bad_nade]

Please, PLEASE take your Rules of Engagement suggestions & comments to the suggestions subforum!!! FFS!!! This thread is about technical issues/flaws/misconfigurations in the implementation of current ROE violations penalty system, not the ROE per se. This thread should be purely tech talk and not politics. Capisce?

[Celestial1]

Problem is that even if the system does currently work, there are a hundred players wasting civis left and right for every 10 that don't shoot civis ever.

I don't think the penalties are currently 'working' (in the sense that they are doing something to reprimand a player), as I have seen many a civilian be killed just before a cache appears (on both sides).

[Mantak08]

um..... you guys realise that you have to have not broken the Civi rules in the last 2 Minuets AND you have to have your hands up for the penalty to work. as soon as you put your hands down, your 7 free tickets.
(7 for killing a Civi whos not under protection: 10 for arresting him)
it works for me when i do it. its just that most people are to impatient to wait 2 minuets.

[Celestial1]

um..... you guys realise that you have to have not broken the Civi rules in the last 2 Minuets AND you have to have your hands up for the penalty to work. as soon as you put your hands down, your 7 free tickets.
(7 for killing a Civi whos not under protection: 10 for arresting him)
it works for me when i do it. its just that most people are to impatient to wait 2 minuets.

Though I've never heard that, I think it seems to kind of defeat the purpose from the civilian's perspective.

Civi with it's hands up is 'invulnerable', but can still be arrested by means of shotgun/cuffs... civi can't run with hands up, so cuffing is easy... As soon as civi puts hands down (to run away, you would need to put hands down), gets shot instantly.



With the new .9 updates it seems like it would make more sense, though, since the 'running away' option would have less impact on spawn times making it desirable to sort of bait them with hands up, then hands down and run to safety (ie nearest fellow insurgents). Still doesn't prevent them from immediately shooting you after, though.

I'll have to play a bit with this in mind (especially in 0.9) and see if I think the penalties/system overall works out properly.



However, I certainly have been shot with my hands up and not having broken civi rules multiple times.

[bad_nade]

AND you have to have your hands up for the penalty to work. as soon as you put your hands down, your 7 free tickets.
(7 for killing a Civi whos not under protection: 10 for arresting him)

Wrong. Hands up is only visual clue, there is no game logic what so ever linked to it. You can wave your hands up and down as much as you will and it won't have any effect on penalty conditions. Also, killing or arresting a civilian counts in team's intel points only. Ticket lost/gain was removed somewhere around PR 0.75-0.8.

Edit:
Fair game timer is one minute, not two minutes.

[Lan]

How many threads have their been on this subject? The majority of people think the penalty isnt harsh enough which imo it isnt anywhere near but i dont think anything has changed for 0.9 althoug i could be wrong. They should lose tickets and the ability to play for 3-4 minutes if you ask me.

[bad_nade]

How many threads have their been on this subject? The majority of people think the penalty isnt harsh enough which imo it isnt anywhere near but i dont think anything has changed for 0.9 althoug i could be wrong. They should lose tickets and the ability to play for 3-4 minutes if you ask me.

Please read the thread or at least a few previous posts before replying off-topic.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f26-pr ... ost1238494

[Lan]

Please read the thread or at least a few previous posts before replying off-topic.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f26-pr ... ost1238494

Firstly please stop thinking you're a mod because really i should ignore your stupid and pointless post. Secondly i know exactly what the thread is about now i suggest you learn to read this page and the page before it as people took it off topic and about the punishments so i replied.

[Celestial1]

Firstly please stop thinking you're a mod because really i should ignore your stupid and pointless post. Secondly i know exactly what the thread is about now i suggest you learn to read this page and the page before it as people took it off topic and about the punishments so i replied.

He's acting like a mod so a mod doesn't have to come in here and shut the thread down.

So basically, he's doing us all a favor (you don't get infractions for useless/unhelpful post content, thread doesn't get closed and he gets an answer...).

That aside, the thread is about whether the penalties currently in game are actually taking effect.
Not whether they're appropriate penalties.
Not whether they should be more harsh.
Do they do something when the ROE rules are broken by a player.




If Mantak can provide a source on where he got this hands up thing it would be greatly appreciated, because it seems plausible that it be in effect, just not widely known. Otherwise, we can assume until we get that info that the penalties should apply after a civilian has not broken ROE rules within the past minute.

[Tartantyco]

I think this little tidbit of psychology is relevant; a swift penalty consistently applied is more deterring than a possible penalty some time in the future(Which really doesn't work).

Basically, with stuff like the 2 minute safe kill on civi's and ambiguities as to what the penalties are and when they're applied means people don't care at all because they do not feel the ramifications of their actions(Can you tell that you lost intel points, and that your action caused their loss?) and because the penalty is implemented some time in the future.

So, if you want people to actually care about killing civi's you have to implement the penalty right then and there. This could range from public and private messages upon a civi kill as to the penalty to losing your kit, blacking out, or getting killed instantly. Unless instant punishment is implemented people won't care either way, it's just the way humans work.

[Lan]

He's acting like a mod so a mod doesn't have to come in here and shut the thread down.

So basically, he's doing us all a favor (you don't get infractions for useless/unhelpful post content, thread doesn't get closed and he gets an answer...).

That aside, the thread is about whether the penalties currently in game are actually taking effect.
Not whether they're appropriate penalties.
Not whether they should be more harsh.
Do they do something when the ROE rules are broken by a player.




If Mantak can provide a source on where he got this hands up thing it would be greatly appreciated, because it seems plausible that it be in effect, just not widely known. Otherwise, we can assume until we get that info that the penalties should apply after a civilian has not broken ROE rules within the past minute.

Did i not just explain the post? Do yourself a favour and read before you quote me in future.

[Celestial1]

@Tartantyco:

Very true; however, it's hard to implement such a system without also having impact on other players.

A Squadlead, or a medic, or whoever kills a civilian and recieves a harsh punishment; now, the squad is left without their SL, or their medic or whatnot. This may be seen in one light as an extreme punishment, and in another an unnecessary impact to the entire squad's cohesion.

Say that killed civilian was using ROE rules to his advantage and say stepped into the line of fire, making the SL/Medic/etc kill the civilian and be killed for it. This leaves the squad now without an SL/Medic/etc, heavily degrading their effectiveness and continue to be without him for the following minutes in which that player is not allowed to spawn.
Sidenote: If the SL is killed, he cannot leave the squad on certain servers like TG who have a squad-less kick, which means that he has to stay in the entire squad dead for his punishment time leaving the squad very much out of order and without a leader, or he can leave the server and try to rejoin (hard to do when the server is usually full to the brim).

That's why it's a bit wonky as it is in regards to the level of punishment; too much punishment with a very simplified rule structure can result in many players exploiting rules to cause the punishment upon another player. Too little punishment with a very complex rule structure can result in many players abusing the fact that the punishment in place is not effective enough to deter the breaking of the rules.


I'd very much prefer the latter over the former-but we do need to figure out where what punishments are appropriate and what rules need to be in place to prevent mis-punishings; and then level out that structure (clear and thorough rule structure, just-strict-enough punishments...)

Did i not just explain the post? Do yourself a favour and read before you quote me in future.

No, you didn't.

Your first post in this thread was what clueless was explicitly TRYING TO STOP.
Your second post was a belligerent "I'm right you're wrong shut up" statement to clueless.
Your third post is a yet another belligerent "I'm right you're wrong shut up" statement now directed at me.

You have offered no help to the thread's content. Do so, or stop posting so ignorantly. If you want to continue this, at least PM me so the thread can stay on track, please.

[bad_nade]

If someone still thinks waving hands will somehow change ROE against civilians then here is the offical answer:

C. The Civilian Collaborator has been given a new "Hands Up" animation while the player is in his "Unarmed" state and the player activates his alternate fire button (the button you use to aim a rifle or switch back and forth between C4 and the remote).

Is this animation tied to any gameplay dynamics? Or is it simply an animation provided to the player for whatever intent and purposes he manages to utilize it for? As in allowing the Civilian Collaborator to identify himself at long range?

Just to quickly answer C. - Its not tied to any code determining spawn times, flagging or whatever, its just a simple animation to visually flag yourself as being a civilian.