Playing the game wrong

[killonsight95]

the only problem with rushing is if the enemy are prepared and stop your first wave then the tide has turned agasinst you because often the enemy will have:
more tickets
possibly more assets
more time to organise attacks/defence

[smiley]

Rushing = full on attack.
Camping = full on defence.
Bounding Overwatch = combination of the above.

Whatever people say, there isn't a whole load of tactics to use in PR - they basically boil down to the 3 tactics above. What you seem to be saying is that PR should be confined to a single tactic to be used on every single round, due to you being butthurt at not fighting the enemy on your terms. ??:

And you my friend are quite rude, making assumptions about me and this isn't the first time only serves to make you seem somewhat childish. I suggest you re read what i said and at no point do i say anything about using one tactic or indeed using any kind of tactics.
Your assumption that i have been butthurt (very mature) is based on what exactly?
That you don't agree with me? I never said you or anyone else should.Also you do not know me, have never played with or against me so i ask again. How do you come to these conclusions?

Just what exactly makes you an overiding authority on how to play an online game? in that you decide there's 3 ways to play the game, your arrogance quite frankly is astounding.

To quote me as "wah wah wah" only furthers my opinion that these forums have degenerated somewhat to the way of most gaming forums in that if you're not in a certain clique or have a massive post count you are ignored or ridiculed.

I cant have an opinion? without being derided for it by someone who is supposed to be a mature community leader

Lastly and this is just for you space fyi i'm 45 yrs of age and have no desire to get involved arguing online with someone who has no talent for debate, however real life is different so if you wish to continue playing mr internet tough guy by all means drop me a pm and i'm sure something can be arranged.


This will be my last post on these forums apart from the SA section as some people are too attention hungry to waste my time on.

Have a good day.

[space]

Maybe reread your own post before accusing people of arrogance and immaturity.

rushing/camping/baseraping etc is for vanilla.

Personally I find that to be pretty arrogant. I don't decide on how anyone pays the game, and personally my attitude is if it works then its good. Mixing things up and "confusing" the enemy is a great tactic, and surprise is a basic tactic in real life - its not considered cheating or unfair. If you take "rushing" and "camping" out of the game, what tactic is left? Bounding overwatch.

Nothing wrong with using that, and its the safest tactic to use, but to say the other tactics are for vanilla is pretty arrogant imo.

[Arnoldio]

Can we please stop referring to rushing as "advanced tactics" because it just isn't. I have played many many online games fps, rts whatever and rushing is prevalent in all of them.
It doesn't take a genius to charge up the map with the most powerful weapon you can find and blow half the team away as they are getting set up, for me this spoils the whole immersion thing.

Also and not naming names, but you know who you are. The guilty culprits usually only do it on certain maps and on certain sides.eg: It's much easier to rush with tanks to nth vill on kashan as mec and camp it than it is to rush sth vill with abrahms and do the same.
I'm sorry but the majority of people who do this are playing for themselves and their selfish little egos. I've also seen many many times the same people who when failing at said rush and lose their asset rage quit straight away, leading me once again to the conclusion that they're inherently selfish.These are also the same people that consider themselves far better players than most when sadly the truth is that they just look for the easiest way to get kills and increase their army of 15 yr old fanboys.

If you think about it, rushing against a team who know what they're doing is the worst thing you can do, and here's why: Everyone is alive at the start of a round, all armour is up and running, all HAT kits are available, so basically everything that can kill your rushing tank/apc/FAV whatever is on the map and ready to take you out.

You have done zero recon, all you have done is charge up the map because you know what direction the majority of the team is coming from. This can be done by simply looking at your map........... So please enlighten me, where is the tactics in that? How much great thought went into knowing a good spot to camp them as they emerge from main? Apart from seeing someone else do it, which is where most of the so called "rushers" and "great tacticians" get their ideas from.



Finally as has been stated before a good side will always beat a rushing side because as far as i'm concerned that's what this mod is all about and rushing/camping/baseraping etc is for vanilla.

On kashan 90% of the team goes to bunkers..WHY? it clearly shows you that there is south village to cap, if the US goes by the "rules" and MEC go by the rules, both teams should meet at the bunkers anyway, but when 50% of mec is at bunkers, 25% at main, 25% at SV capping really slowly, while 90% of US team is capping NV and then progressing to bunkers, those 50% wont have a chance against a full on attack.

Camping = full on defence.

I would not say so, camping is more hiding behind a corner for 20 minutes... Defending is defending...


Anyway whole team rushing is more acceptable than 1 squad rushing...

[smiley]

Maybe reread your own post before accusing people of arrogance and immaturity.



Personally I find that to be pretty arrogant. I don't decide on how anyone pays the game, and personally my attitude is if it works then its good. Mixing things up and "confusing" the enemy is a great tactic, and surprise is a basic tactic in real life - its not considered cheating or unfair. If you take "rushing" and "camping" out of the game, what tactic is left? Bounding overwatch.

Nothing wrong with using that, and its the safest tactic to use, but to say the other tactics are for vanilla is pretty arrogant imo.

Then debate my opinions and not just go " wah wah wah" I see you just cherry picked my last line and quoted that, nice attempt at backtracking and trying to shift blame with a "so are you argument"
My 1st post wasn't directed at anyone personally yours was. You have yet to answer my questions and if you thought i was being arrogant/immature then say so,why resort to attempting childish ridicule?
Seriously if you feel that all that's left if you take out camping/rushing is one option then i have no idea why you play this. The point i was trying to make and which seemed to fly straight over your head was i feel explained in my post, if you didn't understand it then why not ask questions instead of resorting to immature remarks, that is how debate and understanding works not just going "wah wah wah you got butthurt"

As i asked previously and which you have failed to address. How apart from making huge assumptions about me did you reach your conclusions?If you are incapable of explaining your reasoning and arguments in a rational manner then may i suggest the jeremy kyle show is where you should direct your massive intellect. There you may find some appreciation for the terms "butthurt" and "wah wah wah"

I suspect that for some reason you have decided that you don't care for me or my opinions which is fine except that you go about it in a very juvenile way( remember a previous post where you more or less accused me of being a DEV in disguise,where you got that from i have no idea)
So go ahead and disagree with me, people do it to me all the time and i don't mind it.
What i do take exception to however is your attitude when trying to communicate with me by trying to score points with cheap shots and trying to look clever which unfortunately you fail at miserably.

If you ever want a real grown up discussion about anything i'll gladly set you up a vent account where you can tell me my shortcomings face to face so to speak, but judging by the way you conduct yourself here i doubt that you'll take me up on that.

I have nothing more to say to you unless you wish to talk like the grown ups do then i'll be waiting.

[space]

No need to start a flamewar.

are playing for themselves and their selfish little egos

the conclusion that they're inherently selfish

rushing/camping/baseraping etc is for vanilla.

These are also the same people that consider themselves far better players than most when sadly the truth is that they just look for the easiest way to get kills and increase their army of 15 yr old fanboys.

All pretty juvenile comments towards a perfectly legitimate tactic. I put "wahwahwah" to save quoting a wall of text. I put "butthurt" because your comments remind me very much of what I see on the server when a butthurt team has just been raped by a rush.

There's no need to get your knickers in a twist - I don't have a problem with teams rushing - you do. That's fine.

[smiley]

I don't have a problem with teams rushing - you do. That's fine.

Is all you had to say.......wasn't hard was it?

[CallousDisregard]

I might have missed something in all the text here but wasn't the OP talking about situational awareness ?


One or two squads rush to next flag or worse the one after that and leave the current, cappable flag undefended and expect the rest of the team to follow their plan.

One huge problem is they never tell the rest of the team their plan.
The other huge problem is they are rarely timely in discovering that their plan has failed, often miserably, and it is now time to work with the rest of the team on such plebeian goals as capping the marked flag.


I think too many people do not look at the map and see what is actually happening before they make their grand master plans to cap out the map in 10 minutes.

Sure, some maps can be capped out in 15 min, or could be in 0.875d, but most games last at least an a hour and the uberleet types that rushed forward of the planned objectives might get a sweet KDR for a few minutes but they are alone and unsupported and quickly die.

I would just add that when you are capping a flag w/ 2+ squads and the previous flag falls, some of you need to pull back.

I can not count the amount of squads I have been in where the SL looks and says " There are 5 other squads, let them take that flag, we're not moving".

A closer look reveals 3 of those 5 squads are Logi, Helo, and Sniper and the other two squads just got their asses handed to them and are still scattered and/or dead so that none of them is in position to cap the flag behind you.

So you sit there and the SL tells you " We grayed the flag, the enemy can't advance, we are staying here".

Then the flag falls and we are gray on flag that cannot be capped but nobody leaves because ....it's not my job, let somebody else cap that flag, we walked all the way here ...etc etc.

I think it would be better to get familiar with the Cap-Lock map and keep track of bluefor casualties so you can make a real and accurate judgement about where to go and what flag to cap.

I was under the impression that the AAS system was supposed to slow or stop tard rushes on flags and that we all acknowledge there is a difference between reality and what can be replicated on the BF2 engine.


IF that is the case then things like rushing all the armor to South Village on Kashan is a nilla tactic, regardless of its' effectiveness.

I think, all things being equal, most teams lose because they overextend themselves and cannot support their own advance.

[Tim270]

*Sigh*

The problem is not Rushing at all, in pub play people do not want to cap back flags simple as, either you get a CO or SL's with some Logic will go and cap as most people seem to think they are too good to and cap a flag.

AAS is kinda strange, in most situations maps are essentially useless in the scheme of things.

[Hunt3r]

The question is why are people not using APCs and transport trucks to move as fast as they can.

If you use transport effectively, you don't NEED to move ahead. The end result is that you end up capping faster then the enemy team, since the flag that you CAN cap is being capped faster, and you end up moving a whole lot faster to the next flag anyway.

There is a huge disconnect between APCs and transport, and infantry squads, and it bugs me to no end.

[L4gi]

Logistics truck with SL+medic+4 guys on delay spawn: 6 guys with a FoB anywhere on the map withing minutes.

[manligheten]

Can we please stop referring to rushing as "advanced tactics" because it just isn't. I have played many many online games fps, rts whatever and rushing is prevalent in all of them.
It doesn't take a genius to charge up the map with the most powerful weapon you can find and blow half the team away as they are getting set up, for me this spoils the whole immersion thing.
...
Finally as has been stated before a good side will always beat a rushing side because as far as i'm concerned that's what this mod is all about and rushing/camping/baseraping etc is for vanilla.

Rushing is tactics. Many players are way to slow. One need to have speed. Furthermore atleast I am playing to win, "spoiling immersion" is not a problem.

[Mellanbror]

In real life there are units moving ahead of the main body of the army. Scouts, recon and what other. And they do cary out direct action missions. The problem in all this is that IRL these units are highly trained and more fierce then vanilla troops. Most guys rushing ahead in PR do it for the wrong reasons and with, in my view, wrong tactics and lack of communication with rest of the team resulting in failure to cap next or dying needlessly.

I like the freedom thats pressented in PR. Movement and tactics are not restricted.

Someone wrote players are to slow in PR most of the time...hmm...dont agree at all. I play as a medic 95% of the time and my worst nmy is the fellow teammates "moving fast"...and then dying alone. Where as the rest of the squad needs to abandon its primary mission to go and revive "the fast" player. This costing alot of time and maybe causing my own unnecessery death.
Dont missread this. Squads sticking together can move fast at appropriate times. Individuals moving fast without the rest of the squads conscent are a burden. Even if the squad has a pointman, he moves at same speed as rest of squad. Communication is key here.

This was squad level. If we bring it up a level its the team. The squad moving fast (rushing ahead) carelessly is a burden for the team where as a controlled conscented forward patrol (pointman squadlevel) moving inline with teams purpose can be helpfull giving an extra edge to forward momentum. Nothing worse then loosing momentum! The paradox is that people and squads rushing (moving fast) most often bring the momentum to a complete halt.

Another problem in this same area is squads not moving at all. Camping main base forever. Or worse than one squad jumping ahead, they all do it. Everyone goes to Bunkers. No one caps Village, and the tanks are off playing their own game not supporting inf.

As previously written on this post. To correct gameplay and improve teamtactics. We need to get more capable players to play as Commander. Encurage your friends =)

With respect / Mellanbror (age 30, someone else wrote their age so..)

[Arnoldio]

If you use transport effectively, you don't NEED to move ahead.

In that case, those squads wil use effective and fast transport to go out and set up behind gods back even faster.

Rushing is tactics. Many players are way to slow. One need to have speed. Furthermore atleast I am playing to win, "spoiling immersion" is not a problem.

Immersion is what makes this mod worth playing...

I was just playing on TG, Fallujah as US. Both teams were playing as it should be. First, whole US team defends mainbase (ok there was a squad going out for some unknown reason), until cache is revealed. When cache was revealed, whole team moved slowly towards the objectiove by armour and apc support... Even unsurgents played so well, they kept comming in groups, used civies as bait, ambushed us etc etc.

15 minutes into the game we only lost 4 tickets, Abrams wasnt destroyed for an hour or even more (i left), there was no abandoned vehicles, everything at disposal...

This was squad level. If we bring it up a level its the team. The squad moving fast (rushing ahead) carelessly is a burden for the team where as a controlled conscented forward patrol (pointman squadlevel) moving inline with teams purpose can be helpfull giving an extra edge to forward momentum. Nothing worse then loosing momentum! The paradox is that people and squads rushing (moving fast) most often bring the momentum to a complete halt.

I dont have a problem of squads moving ahead of a capped objective, as example, if 2 squads are making a well armoured FOB area, the third squad would say "guys we will advance 300m ahead and slow them down so you can build everything in time. Thats okay because they can fall back and get support from other 2 squads

[Truism]

Can we please stop referring to rushing as "advanced tactics" because it just isn't. I have played many many online games fps, rts whatever and rushing is prevalent in all of them.

Can't be bothered reading more of the thread of replying to more of your post than this. This was your core idea and demonstrates your core misunderstanding of the difference between rushing and what is being talked about here.

Firstly:
Rushing=/=retrograde maneuvre
Rushing=/=defence in depth
Rushing=/=recon by force

Rushing forces past the enemy's forward line of engagement is necessary to do all of these more advanced tactics, but it is in real life too. Maintenance of momentum and tempo are both key considerations these sorts of tactics.

You also ignore three other important things; the fact that limiting tactics used limits the tactics that must be used to counter it, producing a game that is on the whole less complex and more predictable (ie. a simpler metagame).

The fact that all of these tactics are perfectly counterable with appropriate security in operations, use of screens and appropriate overwatch. Indeed operating behind enemy lines brings with it substantial risks to the actors doing it in that they are accepting a position where they are continuously flanked by likely superior forces and cut off from ready access to reinforcements and logistics.

And the fact that those "hard" forces cannot be deployed to perform any more defensive tasks for the team, leaving "softer" assets to fend for themselves against the enemy's maneuvre elements.

On every level, allowing these sorts of tactics is a good thing.

[Rudd]

wow people can get irate here lol

when I play PR I can see a mutitude of tactics

however there are reasons I dont use many of the best ones
- I cba with the effort (not a good reason, but hey, I'm not a saint)
- Sometimes I'm playing with newbies or people who aren't that good, and I don't want to turn my funtime in to teaching time. (so I dumb the tactics down for them)

Lets look at a situation on Al Basrah

My squad is on the west side of the road on teh NW side of the city

there is are an unknown number of insurgents in a house on the other side.

What to do?

Rushing tactics in this case would be to sprint accross the road and clear the house via CQB and grenades.

Attempt to suppress the house and use a different weapon, such as a grenadier to clear the house.
Attempt to suppress the house, so half the squad can safely move up and nade the house (not rushing, this is a carefully set up manouvre)
Attempt to suppress the house, and call fire support from an armoured squad
Disengage from the house if the not deemed worth the time and effort/tickets.


then disenaging has a bunch of tactics inside it, do we smoke out? do we wait for a covering APC? do we get an extract from directly outside our house? (RPGs close?) Do we use a grenadier for the smoke or use smoke grenades? Should half the squad fall back and cover the other half or should we all just leg it?

There are a multitude of different variables which forces me to choose particular actions.
e.g. if RPGs close, means I gotta walk rather than risk the APC coming close, or if I am in danger of being overrun, its time to leg it, or if I have a grenadier, it opens up lots of new options of the use of grenades and smoke, what if we're all running out of ammo?,

running out of ammo changes my tactics completely, it means I cannot rely on a sturdy defence, my squad could get suppressed and unable to move as we can't pump the rounds back at them.

suppressing, flanking, fireteams, friendly elements, retreating, routing, charging (rushing ), distraction, misdirection (e.g. RPGs from ins main = fake cache), I could go on and on.

There are tonnes of tactics, with more and more options opening up or closing depending on your squad loadout, and friendly squads nearby.





One GREAT ideal I have for PR is selflessness.
let me explain
Most people like to complain that the 'others' aren't helping, the 'others' are disconnected. Often, you didn't ask for their help, and they didn't ask for yours - which is usually why you are in a teamwork famine.

Instead of constantly going on about how you're team isn't helping you try this....
Go up to a friendly squad leader and ask him, "how can I help YOU?"


And so, my fellow PR Players: ask not what your team can do for you - ask what you can do for your team!

(that sounds familiar.....)

[smiley]

Can't be bothered reading more of the thread of replying to more of your post than this. This was your core idea and demonstrates your core misunderstanding of the difference between rushing and what is being talked about here.

Firstly:
Rushing=/=retrograde maneuvre
Rushing=/=defence in depth
Rushing=/=recon by force

Rushing forces past the enemy's forward line of engagement is necessary to do all of these more advanced tactics, but it is in real life too. Maintenance of momentum and tempo are both key considerations these sorts of tactics.

You also ignore three other important things; the fact that limiting tactics used limits the tactics that must be used to counter it, producing a game that is on the whole less complex and more predictable (ie. a simpler metagame).

The fact that all of these tactics are perfectly counterable with appropriate security in operations, use of screens and appropriate overwatch. Indeed operating behind enemy lines brings with it substantial risks to the actors doing it in that they are accepting a position where they are continuously flanked by likely superior forces and cut off from ready access to reinforcements and logistics.

And the fact that those "hard" forces cannot be deployed to perform any more defensive tasks for the team, leaving "softer" assets to fend for themselves against the enemy's maneuvre elements.

On every level, allowing these sorts of tactics is a good thing.

1. My core misunderstanding of what? I thought i gave my opinion, explained why and moved on. Then i'm inundated with people telling me i'm wrong without telling me why they're right, surely that's debate "101"

2.Ignored what exactly? Please show me where i said that i was in favour of limiting tactics.
In fact please show me where i said "rushing" should go altogether. I merely gave MY opinion about how i felt on the subject, based upon my role as a public server provider/administrator and NOT as you all have failed to grasp, because i got "butthurt" by it on a server one time.

3. Again you are making assumptions, I am more than capable of dealing with rushers and have never raged/cried or quit because of it, but then you would know that because of the massive amount of time you have spent playing with me and on my server...........oh wait that's right you haven't, you just read a post and decided that you understood me.

4. Again i cant argue with you about your last point, but i say again i was not ignoring anything you mentioned i just had not commented on that, i had merely given a personal opinion on a subject without trying to tell people that they were wrong and i was right.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, all you had to do was address my post and then ask me in the from of a question why had i ignored the 3 points you mentioned? I then would have the chance to clarify my position by responding appropriately. Instead you just told me i was wrong when it was just an opinion, so by definition cant be wrong. It can be disagreed with but cant be wrong unless i try and present it as fact, which i didn't.

5. To summarize: No, i'm not a fan of rushing. Yes, i do know exactly how to deal with rushers. No, i have never been butthurt by them. Yes i'm aware there are other tactics available to me, start another thread and i will happily debate those with you. Yes, people have made large assumptions about what i posted instead of trying to argue or understand me correctly.
And finally.No rudd i'm not irate, just bemused at how people are in such a rush( no pun intended) to tell someone they're wrong when all they have been presented with is an opinion which may differ from their own.

[wookimonsta]

meh, im not that big a fan of rushing. With rushing I mean one squad going to either the last enemy flag or something like that.
Yeah, its an effective tactic, but it also reduces the fun alot. The enemy is usually too busy fighting at the last flag to fight anywhere else, and this makes the map really boring.
In the end the enemy team is still at the last flag and your team moves in and takes them out.
The round is over in 15 minutes and we didn't have any fun.

Everyone discussing if its a valid tactic is just babbling.
Its a game, its supposed to be about fun, if you are robbing 9/10 of the server of the fun so you can rush the enemy, then you are being a ******. This tactic is not different from the insurgents driving the bomb truck into the US main at the beginning of fallujah, it ruins a perfectly good map.

[Truism]

1. My core misunderstanding of what? I thought i gave my opinion, explained why and moved on. Then i'm inundated with people telling me i'm wrong without telling me why they're right, surely that's debate "101"

Statements of fact are bolded. You were not giving your opinions, you were saying how things were.

Can we please stop referring to rushing as "advanced tactics" because it just isn't. I have played many many online games fps, rts whatever and rushing is prevalent in all of them.
It doesn't take a genius to charge up the map with the most powerful weapon you can find and blow half the team away as they are getting set up, for me this spoils the whole immersion thing.

Also and not naming names, but you know who you are. The guilty culprits usually only do it on certain maps and on certain sides.eg: It's much easier to rush with tanks to nth vill on kashan as mec and camp it than it is to rush sth vill with abrahms and do the same.
I'm sorry but the majority of people who do this are playing for themselves and their selfish little egos. I've also seen many many times the same people who when failing at said rush and lose their asset rage quit straight away, leading me once again to the conclusion that they're inherently selfish.These are also the same people that consider themselves far better players than most when sadly the truth is that they just look for the easiest way to get kills and increase their army of 15 yr old fanboys.

If you think about it, rushing against a team who know what they're doing is the worst thing you can do, and here's why: Everyone is alive at the start of a round, all armour is up and running, all HAT kits are available, so basically everything that can kill your rushing tank/apc/FAV whatever is on the map and ready to take you out.

You have done zero recon, all you have done is charge up the map because you know what direction the majority of the team is coming from. This can be done by simply looking at your map........... So please enlighten me, where is the tactics in that? How much great thought went into knowing a good spot to camp them as they emerge from main? Apart from seeing someone else do it, which is where most of the so called "rushers" and "great tacticians" get their ideas from.



Finally as has been stated before a good side will always beat a rushing side because as far as i'm concerned that's what this mod is all about and rushing/camping/baseraping etc is for vanilla.

The funniest thing is that I didn't bold that all in one go. I bolded it argument by argument. Basically you're trying to pretend you didn't just make a whole bunch of unsupportable assertions and get completely owned for doing it. You also imply that rushing either shouldn't be attempted at all, or should be somehow coded against because it is a negative gameplay dynamic (and all negative gameplay dynamics should be fixed).

Additionally you still don't acknowledge that rushing =/= advanced tactics, but many advanced tactics require rushing to achieve. You still want to argue the narrowest possible (truistic) definition of rushing and don't want to look at the broader picture at all.

You should probably take up debating, it might actually help you argue coherently, because at the moment you're outright bad at it.

[Arnoldio]

Think about what can you contribute to the team, and not what can the team offer you.

And so, my fellow PR Players: ask not what your team can do for you - ask what you can do for your team!

(that sounds familiar.....)

Bahaha lol.

Truism and smiley, can you stop arguing because it wil get you nowhere but in problems...