Unlimit the ammo bags

[badmojo420]

In the current system, an ammo bag contains 200 reload points. After testing, I found that 1 shot items like missiles and ammo bags cost 103 reload points. So under the current system, you can reload your ammo bag, and still have a bag on the ground, with the left over 97 points. So this can already be exploited for weapons like the grenade launcher, frags, rpgs, etc. Just not missiles or more ammo bags.

This is the reason why more than 1 ammo bag is not allowed in the world from the same player. Because if you could throw down 10 ammo bags,(after reloading 10 times) you really just need to throw down 2, and then reload off the bags, dropping more bags until you've used that extra 97 reload points to create 10 bags, magically.

So, I would first like to suggest a change to fix this

The line of code is in...

\objects\weapons_server.zip\weapons\Handheld\ammokit\ammokit.tweak

Code: Select all

ObjectTemplate.sharedStorageSize 200

to

Code: Select all

ObjectTemplate.sharedStorageSize 103

Which will do what is seen in this video...(first clip is the current system, showing smoke grenades being reloaded with the left over ammo. The second is the modified version.)


I feel this isn't so much a suggestion as much as a bug fix. But there could be factors i'm not taking into account.

My original suggestion is for someone with an ammo bag to reload and drop more ammo bags. Like how people can drop 30 land mines, I would like to be able to drop 10 or more ammo bags. (Provided it doesn't create any unrealistic ammo exploits.)

If I am defending a FOB or somewhere with supplies close, should I not be able to make 10 trips and pile up a large supply of ammo wherever I need it? This would encourage the type of 'digging in' behavior that deviation and other features in PR encourage.

The only exploit I can see with more ammo bags would be the speed at which you can reload a weapon. More sources multiples the speed at which you reload. But, given you've prepared a location with ammo, it wouldn't be that unrealistic.

Some will say it is unneeded since we already have trucks and helicopters dropping ammo. But, what if you're holding a location like the Iraqi Gate on Fallujah, should people have to climb down the ladder, and run over to crates every time they need to reload? In real life they would get some people to carry ammo up to where it will be needed. It would give infantry the ability to do their own logistics, instead of being at the mercy of the road/skies.

I'd suggest upping the limit to 10 or at the very least 5.

You would still only ever carry 1 bag, just like mines, but they wouldn't disappear when you dropped a second bag.

[Thermis]

Misunderstood OPs meaning, thread re-opened for discussion for now.

[badmojo420]

Edited original post to include a fix for an exploit Thermis brought to my attention. And tried to make my suggestion easier to understand.

[Shaihuluid]

Edited original post to include a fix for an exploit Thermis brought to my attention. And tried to make my suggestion easier to understand.

'tis a good Idea

I support

[Dev1200]

Support.


SO basically your saying you can make infa-ammo with 1 ammo bag o.o

[bad_nade]

I found that 1 shot items like missiles and ammo bags cost 103 reload points.

According to Caboosehatesbabies's excellent ammo system research, one weapon slot cost exactly 100 resupply points.

[Oskar]

Very good idea indeed, can't seem to think of any obvious exploits.

[Ls4SpeedPilot]

In the current system, an ammo bag contains 200 reload points. After testing, I found that 1 shot items like missiles and ammo bags cost 103 reload points. So under the current system, you can reload your ammo bag, and still have a bag on the ground, with the left over 97 points. So this can already be exploited for weapons like the grenade launcher, frags, rpgs, etc. Just not missiles or more ammo bags.

This is the reason why more than 1 ammo bag is not allowed in the world from the same player. Because if you could throw down 10 ammo bags,(after reloading 10 times) you really just need to throw down 2, and then reload off the bags, dropping more bags until you've used that extra 97 reload points to create 10 bags, magically.

So, I would first like to suggest a change to fix this

The line of code is in...

\objects\weapons_server.zip\weapons\Handheld\ammokit\ammokit.tweak

Code: Select all

ObjectTemplate.sharedStorageSize 200

to

Code: Select all

ObjectTemplate.sharedStorageSize 103

Which will do what is seen in this video...(first clip is the current system, showing smoke grenades being reloaded with the left over ammo. The second is the modified version.)


I feel this isn't so much a suggestion as much as a bug fix. But there could be factors i'm not taking into account.

My original suggestion is for someone with an ammo bag to reload and drop more ammo bags. Like how people can drop 30 land mines, I would like to be able to drop 10 or more ammo bags. (Provided it doesn't create any unrealistic ammo exploits.)

If I am defending a FOB or somewhere with supplies close, should I not be able to make 10 trips and pile up a large supply of ammo wherever I need it? This would encourage the type of 'digging in' behavior that deviation and other features in PR encourage.

The only exploit I can see with more ammo bags would be the speed at which you can reload a weapon. More sources multiples the speed at which you reload. But, given you've prepared a location with ammo, it wouldn't be that unrealistic.

Some will say it is unneeded since we already have trucks and helicopters dropping ammo. But, what if you're holding a location like the Iraqi Gate on Fallujah, should people have to climb down the ladder, and run over to crates every time they need to reload? In real life they would get some people to carry ammo up to where it will be needed. It would give infantry the ability to do their own logistics, instead of being at the mercy of the road/skies.

I'd suggest upping the limit to 10 or at the very least 5.

You would still only ever carry 1 bag, just like mines, but they wouldn't disappear when you dropped a second bag.

i agrre with that suggestion

[Gossy*AUS*]

SO basically your saying you can make infa-ammo with 1 ammo bag o.o

No, what hes suggesting is that you could drop an ammo bag, and resupply your bag from it, but the first one would disappear by doing that.

Where this would come into play is that you could make a pile of supply bags by going back to a supply crate after dropping the first one, resupply and then be able to drop another bag without the first one disappearing, up to a limit of 5-10.

I don't see any potential gameplay flaws coming of this, and it seems like something that could be implemented with relatively little pain.

[dtacs]

No, what hes suggesting is that you could drop an ammo bag, and resupply your bag from it, but the first one would disappear by doing that.

Where this would come into play is that you could make a pile of supply bags by going back to a supply crate after dropping the first one, resupply and then be able to drop another bag without the first one disappearing, up to a limit of 5-10.

I don't see any potential gameplay flaws coming of this, and it seems like something that could be implemented with relatively little pain.

+1 Gossy for the layman's terms.

Agree, good thinking OP.

[Killer-Ape]

I don't see any potential gameplay flaws coming of this, and it seems like something that could be implemented with relatively little pain.

I see one issue.

The more bags/crates you touch the faster you rearm. Try rearming an H-AT at one crate, takes some time to get a new rocket. Now if you do that on three piled up ammo bags it will rearm almost instantaneously. More ammo sources means not only more ammo but a faster reload time. Referring to the way BF2 handles this stuff. In real life you don’t magically rearm faster even if you had a silo full of ammo. This can also be exploited and limiting to one bag obviously prevents this.

If you drop one crate then some ammo riflemen deploy and rearm bags on the crate you got one quick rearm station!

[Celestial1]

The more bags/crates you touch the faster you rearm

Yeah.

If we can fix this, the suggestion would be fine.

[Boris.T.Spider]

If you drop the ammo capacity of the bag to 103, that means that if you try to rearm a specialist who has used his dressing and one single shotgun shell, the bag will disappear and he will get nothing. This system would only work when you had an additional ammo supply to be able to multiply your bags, without that the ammo bag would just be a waste of a slot.

[badmojo420]

According to Caboosehatesbabies's excellent ammo system research, one weapon slot cost exactly 100 resupply points.

I'll read the thread, but from my testing having a supply size of 101 would not resupply the ammobag. 103 was the sweet spot.

I see one issue.

The more bags/crates you touch the faster you rearm. Try rearming an H-AT at one crate, takes some time to get a new rocket. Now if you do that on three piled up ammo bags it will rearm almost instantaneously. More ammo sources means not only more ammo but a faster reload time. Referring to the way BF2 handles this stuff. In real life you don’t magically rearm faster even if you had a silo full of ammo. This can also be exploited and limiting to one bag obviously prevents this.

If you drop one crate then some ammo riflemen deploy and rearm bags on the crate you got one quick rearm station!

1- This can already be exploited, just not as easily, by using multiple supply crates or ammo boxes. With the new insurgent ammo truck, if you drop the 3 boxes beside each other it cuts the reload time of mines from around 30s to about 5s. So this isn't so much a problem with my suggestion, as it is a problem with the whole system.

2- I wrote in my OP that i think speeding up your reload wouldn't be that unrealistic because you've spent the time to lay out your ammo for easier access. But, that's debatable.

If you drop the ammo capacity of the bag to 103, that means that if you try to rearm a specialist who has used his dressing and one single shotgun shell, the bag will disappear and he will get nothing. This system would only work when you had an additional ammo supply to be able to multiply your bags, without that the ammo bag would just be a waste of a slot.

What is better? Having a system where ammo bags can be exploited and infinite ammo can be gained? Or having bags with less ammo?

Also, from my personal experience I've found that ammobags are rarely used to resupply a field dressing. Mostly they're used to provide additional epipens to a medic, some extra mags to soldiers running low. Or the most common use, another single shot weapon to a HAT, LAT or AA. If you understand how the system works and how much ammo is given, there should be little issue with people not getting resupplied.

[l|Bubba|l]

This system would only work when you had an additional ammo supply to be able to multiply your bags,

Thats why he suggested that the rifleman should be able to carry and drop multiply ammo bags.

[Killer-Ape]

1- This can already be exploited, just not as easily, by using multiple supply crates or ammo boxes. With the new insurgent ammo truck, if you drop the 3 boxes beside each other it cuts the reload time of mines from around 30s to about 5s. So this isn't so much a problem with my suggestion, as it is a problem with the whole system.

2- I wrote in my OP that i think speeding up your reload wouldn't be that unrealistic because you've spent the time to lay out your ammo for easier access. But, that's debatable.

So you are saying that you want it easier then? Remember anyone can spawn as an ammo rifleman and put down bags, give them the ability to multiply it and you got a whole pile of bags in no time. This is nothing compared to the effort from supply truck crates or the insurgent truck.

Firstly; if you want some real resupply effect from crates then you need to put down at least three crates at the same spot. Much easier said than done, who wants to do it anyway, both wasteful and dangerous.

Secondly; Insurgent ammo crates don’t last that long and need to be transported. On top of that insurgents don’t get to many ammo trucks on maps, usually one active per map. And you need to keep it alive from tanks and APCs.

What is better? Having a system where ammo bags can be exploited and infinite ammo can be gained? Or having bags with less ammo?

I don’t like it as you will see people instantly rearming patches and other stuff. Much worse than individually rearming your limited bag for some extra grenades as it still takes time do it.

In short, this suggestion brings us closer back to vanilla arcade spam, so no thanks you as I don’t find it debatable that you can acquire new H-ATs in seconds. Yes the BF2 system is flawed, but your suggestion only makes it worse.

[Boris.T.Spider]

Bubba, I understood that part, I was just saying that lowering the value of the ammo bag to avoid the exploit would make the ammo bag useless in the field. If a squad member fires off a sinlge clip of any weapon, or even one shotgun shell, he will be unable to reload any one shot item as the ammo bag would dissapear before anything reloaded.

[l|Bubba|l]

@Boris.T.Spider
That not true if you only shot a few magazines of rifle ammo. That only happen if you already used some more valuable things like grenades, rockets, dressings, etc.

Ammo Bag:
||||||||||||||||||||

Example 1: You get nothing
1 Rocket
||||||||||||||||||||
1 Field Dressing
||||||||||||||||||||


Example 2: You get 1 Rifle Magazin
1 Rocket
||||||||||||||||||||
1 Smoke Grenade
||||||||||
1 Rifle Magazin
||

What I wanted to say is, that the rifleman could just drop 2 or 3 bags at once to avoid this kind of situations.

[Redamare]

yep i like .... olool i think that ammo bags should ONLY rreeload bullets though -_- or .... i dont know there kind of tricky some times cuz you would want to use it for a bandage too ...

[badmojo420]

So you are saying that you want it easier then? Remember anyone can spawn as an ammo rifleman and put down bags, give them the ability to multiply it and you got a whole pile of bags in no time. This is nothing compared to the effort from supply truck crates or the insurgent truck.

Firstly; if you want some real resupply effect from crates then you need to put down at least three crates at the same spot. Much easier said than done, who wants to do it anyway, both wasteful and dangerous.

Secondly; Insurgent ammo crates don’t last that long and need to be transported. On top of that insurgents don’t get to many ammo trucks on maps, usually one active per map. And you need to keep it alive from tanks and APCs.

No, I do not want to make it easier to exploit glitches in the BF2 system. I only wish to improve the ammobag system. It sucks that it creates another avenue for people to glitch, but like I've said, the ability is already there. I use it, and other people do as well. You can say it is difficult to do or requires more work, but the fact is that LOTS of people use the 3 crates together as insurgent while placing landmines. And for stuff like defending the main base on old Fallujah I constantly saw piles of supply crates for the very same glitch.

I don’t like it as you will see people instantly rearming patches and other stuff. Much worse than individually rearming your limited bag for some extra grenades as it still takes time do it.

My suggestion is in 2 parts, and they don't need to both happen. My first suggestion is to fix this extra ammo nonsense where an ammo bag gives more ammo than it costs to reload. Obviously this is unrealistic since basic physics says you can't get out more than you put in.

So, saying you dislike the first part of my suggestion, because of an issue with the second part, is rather pointless. Even if we keep the 1 bag per solider, I would still like to see the bags get the proper amount of ammo, even if it means losing almost half the ammo in a bag.

In short, this suggestion brings us closer back to vanilla arcade spam, so no thanks you as I don’t find it debatable that you can acquire new H-ATs in seconds. Yes the BF2 system is flawed, but your suggestion only makes it worse.

I'll sum it up with this, the bags won't materialize out of thin air like they do in the regular battlefield games. They will require a long reload between bags.(Unless you're reloading off a big pile of supply crates) So, keeping that in mind, a pile of ammo bags will be the result of some hard work. Which is similar to the hard work that a logistics driver would do to bring supplies to the front. Also something to consider is that when you take ammo out of the supply crate, it will eventually run out. So this is not in any way a limitless supply of ammo. And on top of that, once you've converted your supply crate into easy to grab ammobags, the enemy can also rearm off your supply. So piling up large amounts of ammo bags would also be a risky strategy unless you've secured the location and plan on staying. Not to mention, you can't request kits off an ammo bag.

Edit: I did some more testing. Ammo bags replenish at a speed of 10. Supply crates at a speed of 4. If we were to reduce the speed on the ammo bag to 4, and limit players to 5 bags, having 5 bags together would only give around 100 more ammo points and be the same speed as 2 of the current ammo bags.

You could still reload a patch or missile in around 5seconds with 5 bags, but you have a 35second reload time when you only have 1 bag. Which is the same as a single supply crate.