Making Autocannons More Powerful

[Hunt3r]

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks this, but can we please have the AP rounds in the autocannon have a step up in power?

The Bushmaster M242 on the Bradley fires APFSDS. In the Gulf War, T-72s were actually destroyed by fire from the Bushmaster. I'm pretty sure that it should not take more then 10-20 rounds of AP to destroy a BMP-3, seeing as how it has armor so thin that RPG-7s can probably punch through.

The BMP-3 should also have a bigger punch, because in PR it really takes far too many shots of AP to take out an enemy Bradley.

Also, HE performance is also pretty dismal for these autocannons. The HE blast is not what I would call particularly powerful. A burst of 3 should be able to kill anyone hiding in buildings like the houses in the villages of Kashan.

[Dev1200]

The HE feels like the blast radius is around 1m, in game. Which is pretty pathetic. TBH it feels like grenades have a bigger blast radius.

[Kim Jong ill]

Well considering grenades have more explosives and more shrapnel you'd expect them to have a bigger blast radius...

[sakils2]

^Needs sauce...

[Kim Jong ill]

Well despite the fact it's common sense considering the size of the two munitions I'll be a good little boy and post some links.

Bolded parts are relevant

The M792 HEI-T round offers the accuracy and performance needed for light materiel and fire suppression. This round is used to destroy lightly armored vehicles and helicopters (armored and unarmored) and to suppress antitank guided missile (ATGM) positions, crew served weapons, dismounted infantry, and likely enemy positions past coaxial 7.62 mm machine gun range out to a distance of 3,000 meters. The HEI-T cartridge is a fixed type, percussion primed round. The cartridge consists of a high explosive incendiary (HEI) filled, one piece projectile body crimped to a steel cartridge case. The projectile body consists of a hollow steel body, M758 fuse, 32 grams of an HEI mix, and pressed in tracer. This round is fuzed with the M758 Point Detonating Self-Destruct (PDSD) fuze, developed and produced exclusively by Alliant Techsystems. The M758 provides superior arming delay, graze and extended range sensitivity, and self-destruct compared to existing medium caliber fuzes. Gases produced by the burning propellant discharge the projectile from the gun at 1,100 meters per second ( plus or minus 20 meters per second). On impact the fuse (M75 functions and the HEI filler detonates, dispersing the incendiary mixture in a 5 meter radius. If the projectile has not impacted at about 3,000 meters, the mechanical fuse will self detonate the round.

The body of the M-67 hand grenade is a 2.5-inch diameter steel sphere designed to burst into numerous fragments when detonated. It produces casualties within an effective range of 49.5 feet (15 meters) by the high velocity projection of fragments. The grenade body contains 6.5 ounces (184.271 g) of high explosive. Each grenade is fitted with a fuse that activates the explosive charge.

I mean really which would have more explosives a 2.5 inch hand grenade or a 1 inch shell, I wonder...

[Jaymz]

The Bushmaster M242 on the Bradley fires APFSDS. In the Gulf War, T-72s were actually destroyed by fire from the Bushmaster. I'm pretty sure that it should not take more then 10-20 rounds of AP to destroy a BMP-3, seeing as how it has armor so thin that RPG-7s can probably punch through.

Takes 24 x 25mm AP rounds to completely destroy one currently. Sources on how much of projectile "A" it should take to destroy target "B" are hard to come by. It mostly comes down to the MA's telling us what it should be based on their experience/opinion.

The BMP-3 should also have a bigger punch, because in PR it really takes far too many shots of AP to take out an enemy Bradley.

Takes 20 x 30mm AP rounds to completely destroy a Bradley currently.

Also, HE performance is also pretty dismal for these autocannons. The HE blast is not what I would call particularly powerful. A burst of 3 should be able to kill anyone hiding in buildings like the houses in the villages of Kashan.

25mm HE-I in PR

Kill Radius : 1.5m (combat ineffective, black n white, at 2m)
Wound Radius : 5m

On impact the fuse ( M758 ) functions and the HEI filler detonates, dispersing the incendiary mixture in a 5 meter radius.

source : M792, High Explosive Incendiary with Tracer (HEI-T)

30mm HE-I in PR

Kill Radius : 2m (combat ineffective, black n white, at 3m)
Wound Radius : 7m

damn tricky to find sources on this one that state the bursting radius.

I know what you're getting at regarding damage through walls. It's pretty damn annoying that BF2 hard codingly blocks explosive damage through walls for only infantry. The workaround we used for the JDAM could probably be applied here.

[sakils2]

Well despite the fact it's common sense considering the size of the two munitions I'll be a good little boy and post some links.

Bolded parts are relevant





I mean really which would have more explosives a 2.5 inch hand grenade or a 1 inch shell, I wonder...

Well, excuse me Mr. I know everything about stuff which blow up

[Hunt3r]

The workaround we used for the JDAM could probably be applied here.

I'm highly interested in seeing how this would work.

[Outlawz7]

Umm why would you want splash damage going through walls if there's no holes/it's not destroyed? Or to simulate round penetration or something?

[Hunt3r]

Umm why would you want splash damage going through walls if there's no holes/it's not destroyed? Or to simulate round penetration or something?

Yes, contrary to popular belief, HE rounds can go through walls. Especially when it's a 25mm.

[Sniper77shot]

Well considering grenades have more explosives and more shrapnel you'd expect them to have a bigger blast radius...

No, grenades arn't actually that strong they arn't as effective in real life as in games so it should stay the same.

[Spinkyone]

The BMP-3 should also have a bigger punch, because in PR it really takes far too many shots of AP to take out an enemy Bradley.

The BMP 3 already has a substantial advantage in that it's ROF is 550 rounds per minute versus the Bradley's mere 200.

You'll find it hard to find the correct values of number of shots to kill an enemy vehicle because you'll find crews keep on firing until they are 100% certain the target is stopped and dead or ceasing only if another target presents itself that is more pressing. It could take as little as one well placed shot or a certain combination of armour orientation and range to make the weapon completely ineffective.

Random damage or damage based on armour orientation isn't yet possible in PR currently so the higher or mid range number is probably a workaround. In the future a FH2 style armour system would be nice but again it's a case of replacing all BF2 vehicles and then modifying existing PR ones.

[rushn]

Well considering grenades have more explosives and more shrapnel you'd expect them to have a bigger blast radius...

different chemicals have different reactions size does not always matter

YouTube - Brainiac Alkali Metals
this has pretty good explanation

[Kim Jong ill]

Yes, no shit. It's a good thing we're talking about self oxidising explosives and not alkali metals then. This has already been covered by both myself and Jaymz.

The M67 Hand Grenade has an effective range of 15ms due to shrapnel effects, with lethal effects inside of 5ms. The M792 disperses it's incendiary agent in a radius of 5ms, there are no ifs or buts. The M67 has a larger effective radius then the M792, which one would expect considering the relative sizes of the two rounds.

[BloodBane611]

Yes, contrary to popular belief, HE rounds can go through walls. Especially when it's a 25mm.

A 25mm HEI round will penetrate through walls, but it's not going to damage an individual inside a building just by fragmenting against the ground on the other side of the wall.

A really terribly drawn example:


Just giving HEI rounds splash damage, both of the above terribly drawn stick figures would be dead. I would love to see directional splash damage of some sort, but HEI does not kill people through walls unless it actually hits on or near those walls. The round must actually expend its energy against the wall, it's not some sort of circle-of-death-through-walls.

[Hunt3r]

The wall being hit by the HE round, and the HE round exploding should produce spalling, which should at least wound the person near it.

A burst of three, in theory, should be very powerful, seeing as how it possesses the energy to punch through the wall, either exploding inside the room or the wall.

[DankE_SPB]

The wall being hit by the HE round, and the HE round exploding should produce spalling, which should at least wound the person near it.

Thats not obvious tbh, ofc this heavily depends on material and thickness, but i doubt it so easily penetrates brick walls and reinforced concrete(most of buildings/structures in PR) so it requires molotovs effect for it, the fact it explodes on contact only reduces its penetration and spall effect imo

For new guns there are new munitions developed, like CT 40mm GPR with ~150-200mm concrete penetration, but 40mm is far greater in both steel and explosives weight than 30mm
(@ 7.30)
pic

But i can't remember something similar for 30mm not in project state out of my head
if you can, please direct where i can read about it

A burst of three, in theory, should be very powerful, seeing as how it possesses the energy to punch through the wall, either exploding inside the room or the wall.

Now i'll step into slick way to plead on videos, but in the lack of other sources or people with 1st hand experience lets live with it and wait for them
Have you watched Ross Camp in A-stan series? At one point he stands next to hand made wall and says 30mm apache rounds were not able to penetrate it
Other example i've seen is bmp-2 in chechnya firing at very long range, there it penetrated only roof(which is thin and neither bricks nor concrete), but not walls, but again, this at very long range

The workaround we used for the JDAM could probably be applied here.

This would be interesting to test on tank/bmp3 munitions

[Narco]

Have you watched Ross Camp in A-stan series? At one point he stands next to hand made wall and says 30mm apache rounds were not able to penetrate it

Oh hai.



The episode in question, skip to around 3:15.

Bai.

[Dev1200]

Jaymz;1305876']
25mm HE-I in PR

Kill Radius : 1.5m (combat ineffective, black n white, at 2m)
Wound Radius : 5m

30mm HE-I in PR

Kill Radius : 2m (combat ineffective, black n white, at 3m)
Wound Radius : 7m

PR Meters are a lot smaller then real ones. When I last tested it with some friends, 4-5 people can stand side-by-side, so it looks like this:

|oooo|

|'s being the ends of the measure, o's being people.

In PR, It's only 2-3. Is measurement hardcoded? Or can we adjust it based on real values?

[Hunt3r]

If I haven't gone completely batty, something like the Mk44 can cleanly punch through thick reinforced concrete walls.