64 tanks in VW mode

[badmojo420]

How cool would it be to have massive 32 versus 32 tank battles?

If the normal tank was swapped out for the "bf2" version,(the one seen in coop, where you can drive and shoot the turret in the same seat) I think vehicle warfare mode would benefit. Not only would you have more tanks on the field, but now you could easily organize a 6 tank formation in a single voip channel. And controlling the tank would be more realistic as random people thrown together don't represent a well trained tank crew. Basically it would simulate having a well trained crew and you as the tank commander.

In my opinion, vehicle warfare mode shouldn't be about the individual tanks and how their crews perform, rather it should be about team strategy as a whole. Formations, holding positions, tactics.

Discuss...

2013 Edit:

In the three years since making this suggestion thread, I still think it's a good idea. There can be teamwork with no tank crews.

Real life tank crews train together for months if not years. Just the same, a good tank squad in PR is a group who've played together and trust each other. But, then there's vehicle warfare mode. Where EVERYONE is expected to adhere to these high standards. Which is an unrealistic expectation given the nature of PR. We all find our niche in PR, we can't expect that to be tank crew for everyone.

In vehicle warfare the "player" should be more than just his solider avatar. A player should be a vehicle. If you are in a vehicle, you should be assumed to be the commander, with the proper amount of men crewing it. Ideally, you would spawn inside the vehicle and not be allowed to get out.

The teamwork focus should be on how your vehicles can work together as a squad, and as a team. Having 100 vehicles on a really large map would change the way we looked at PR. We could mix things up, throw in something from each vehicle size. The small tow humvees would maneuver better than a large tanks, APCs could duke it out as well. Dare I say a few air assets could shake things up. Logistics playing the role of medic.

If the limited kit system was worked into it, you could give a limited amount of heavy vehicles & logistics, and the light/mediums would be unlimited. You would pick your vehicle type on the spawn screen. People would have to join squads to get better vehicles, enforcing the PR ethic.

Maybe you can only get out with a certain kit. A reversal of the crewman kit requirement where it kills you unless you're in a vehicle. So you could have guys spawn as dismounts with anti-tank weapons for example. But, the guy who spawned the vehicle dies if he gets out.


Personally, I would love to see more vehicle warfare matches. I've been playing World of Tanks lately and would enjoy that action in the PR world. Nobody plays the current vehicle warfare mode and nothing ever changes with it. I think it needs to be more than just a bunch of vehicles slapped down in the main bases. If my ideas aren't good, then something else.

[Rudd]

VW mode is still a teamwork mode, involving teamwork at the squad and team level, and the current settings reflect tha i think more than vehicles controlled by single players, and is a better reflection of PR's standard gameplay.

however I wouldn't be opposed to a PRSP level with 32 vehicles vs 32 vehicles per team

[badmojo420]

I didn't mean to imply that single manned tanks would mean more teamwork overall. I just suggest that it may create more enjoyable combat, and maybe better inter-squad teamwork. I personally find the combat in vehicle warfare mode leaves a lot to be desired.

A good comparison is thinking how much fun would normal infantry combat be if they limited the squads to only 3 people?

[shribey22]

A good comparison is thinking how much fun would normal infantry combat be if they limited the squads to only 3 people?

The problem with that statement is the fact that infantry squads rely on many different types of kits (i.e. SAW gunner, medic, etc) to accomplish their goals whereas tanks are a little more straightforward. Im not saying your idea is a bad one, just that I think you are oversimplifying things.

Also, could you imagine only having three guys in the squad for the current spawn setup? I believe it would be much harder to stay alive!

[badmojo420]

Also, could you imagine only having three guys in the squad for the current spawn setup? I believe it would be much harder to stay alive!

My point exactly. In the current mode you have a max of 3 tanks in a squad. So losing even one tank really hurts the strength of the squad. There is almost no room for casualties. Losing 33% of your squad compared to 15% is a huge difference.

The problem with that statement is the fact that infantry squads rely on many different types of kits (i.e. SAW gunner, medic, etc) to accomplish their goals whereas tanks are a little more straightforward.

True. But, my point was more about 'safety in numbers'. 6 tanks in one squad is easier and more likely to happen then 2 squads of 3 tanks each working closely (and communicating easily) together. Just like if we reduced infantry squads to 3, sure, you could run with another squad and have the same numbers, but it wouldn't be 'the system'. Players are hardcoded right?

[ZephyrDark]

I understand why people are saying that would remove from teamwork.
Mojo, you stated that if you lose one tank from your 3 tank squad results in a loss of 33% less squad power, right? Well, that pretty means your tanks are very valuable and forces a squad to be more careful and provides a more tactical feel for the gamemode. The gamemode is already on the verge of being outside of PR Standards (due to unconventional-ness of 16 tanks Vs 16 tanks in a 4k area with no infantry or etc support.)

The fact that if you lose one tank in a squad of 3 can be devastating, but a Tank Squad like that can still be very effective. I was once in a tank squad on Kashan on the USArmy. We got surrounded and ambushed by 3 T-90s, I believe we all took out one, then lost one of our tanks, injured another of theirs and lost our second tank, and only my tank was left(I was gunning fyi). Versus 2 more tanks, we survived, taking one hit(namely due to the other tanks missing mine), but a squad can still run strong after losing even 66% of their squad.

However, in an infantry squad, you could lose one man in your squad and there goes the squad. A SAW gunner that is providing precious firesupport, if lost can mean the enemy could advance almost freely on your position. The medic, which if lost is obviously a great loss as you lose the ability to have revives without losing a rifleman on the front line. Losing your squadleader can leave your squad disorganized as your leader can no longer see the firefight. Losing a H-AT or L-AT kit can mean certain death to a squad when faced against armour. The loss of a SDM can be compared to the loss of the squad's SAW. However in a tank squad each tank is the same in a squad and has advantage over disadvantage compared to another tank in the squad, ignoring a players skill.

I for one enjoy the current VW Gamemode, however, it does seem to be missing something. Idk, but in my opinion, some varieties of the VWGM would be nice. Maybe have some APCvAPC layouts, light jeep vs light jeep as well might be fun(though the idea of the BRDM being a light vehicle on a VW map would render a lot of things unbalanced; ie. zoom vs. no zoom. However CROWS HMMWVs could solve that)

On your argument that a squad of six is easier to work with than 2 squads of three, well then we can bring Mumble into the argument(that also can take your players are hardcoded idea). SL to SL chat works very nicely as the SLs can just relay info using VoIP. All we need are the DEVs to find a way to intergrate mumble into the BF2 engine somehow and we'll be set

[shribey22]

ah i must have missed your point, my bad!

[Dev1200]

Keep it the way it is. No point having 32 v 32.. one person doing all the tanking is unrealistic. It's arcade-y.

[motherdear]

well if you complain about losing 33% of your tactical forces, then you should use mumble and make sure others do to and coordinate that way. or even get a commander to command (oh the horror !!!)
seriously, a large part of armor warfare is the coordination between the crew and the 3 tanks, if it is 6 tanks there is no coordination needed and anyone might as well take a tank and just rush with no teamwork.
not gonna change

[badmojo420]

I know if you're a die hard crewman who loves that driver/gunner relationship, this will sound like a nightmare, but getting beyond that, wouldn't this change improve the squad teamwork? Having twice the number of units to assist the squad. Rushing in solo would accomplish very little when you're faced full enemy squads of 6 tanks. You would be lucky to take out one.

And is a large part of vehicle warfare having 3 vehicles sharing 1 set of comms? I know, mumble is our savior, but it's hard enough finding full VW servers, let alone ones using mumble. And I don't have 30 friends playing at any given time to invite and force mumble onto. VOIP channel in VW mode is hectic to say the least.

I just had a vision of what vehicle warfare was going to be like before it came out. And it wasn't this tank squad training mode that it feels like.

[Doedel]

How about 16 per side instead, and keep it operable only by two crewmen. 16 assortments of tanks, IFVs and support vehicles in 3-vehicle squadrons roaming about the map would be pretty damned cool.

[badmojo420]

In the three years since making this suggestion thread, I still think it's a good idea. There can be teamwork with no tank crews.

Real life tank crews train together for months if not years. Just the same, a good tank squad in PR is a group who've played together and trust each other. But, then there's vehicle warfare mode. Where EVERYONE is expected to adhere to these high standards. Which is an unrealistic expectation given the nature of PR. We all find our niche in PR, we can't expect that to be tank crew for everyone.

In vehicle warfare the "player" should be more than just his solider avatar. A player should be a vehicle. If you are in a vehicle, you should be assumed to be the commander, with the proper amount of men crewing it. Ideally, you would spawn inside the vehicle and not be allowed to get out.

The teamwork focus should be on how your vehicles can work together as a squad, and as a team. Having 100 vehicles on a really large map would change the way we looked at PR. We could mix things up, throw in something from each vehicle size. The small tow humvees would maneuver better than a large tanks, APCs could duke it out as well. Dare I say a few air assets could shake things up. Logistics playing the role of medic.

If the limited kit system was worked into it, you could give a limited amount of heavy vehicles & logistics, and the light/mediums would be unlimited. You would pick your vehicle type on the spawn screen. People would have to join squads to get better vehicles, enforcing the PR ethic.

Maybe you can only get out with a certain kit. A reversal of the crewman kit requirement where it kills you unless you're in a vehicle. So you could have guys spawn as dismounts with anti-tank weapons for example. But, the guy who spawned the vehicle dies if he gets out.


Personally, I would love to see more vehicle warfare matches. I've been playing World of Tanks lately and would enjoy that action in the PR world. Nobody plays the current vehicle warfare mode and nothing ever changes with it. I think it needs to be more than just a bunch of vehicles slapped down in the main bases. If my ideas aren't good, then something else.

[Sex_Cactus]

I think the best thing to do would be to make this one-man-vehicle warfare an alternate option and let the players decide which they like better. Player preference should trump theories and opinions about which equates to more/better teamwork. OP's idea is different. I don't think anyone can say it would be better or worse. As it is, very few servers play VW maps, and that might be because it's just not as fun due to the difficulty of coordinating a bunch of people who don't know each other. A breakdown in communication in a two-man tank naturally has more dire consequences than a breakdown in communication between two individuals, say, infantry squadmates. I think it's entirely possible that one-man-vehicles will help increase the viability of the VW concept as it will essentially translate the teamwork we see in infantry squads into tank squads.

[=]H[=TangFiend]

No single seater combat vehicles in deployment PR please.

I'm going to get totally negative Nancy on this one but that sounds totally boring, arcadey and lame.



It would just be BF2:World of Tanks.

[Kevokpo]

there is no need to make them one manned tanks now with 100p servers you will have 50 tanks on each side.

[Xander[nl]]

Only 25, because they need to be crewed by two.
Not that 25 isn't a lot already.


100 player servers however do add the posibility for effective repair/logistic squads to operate alongside the tanks.

[Kevokpo]

;1942324']Only 25, because they need to be crewed by two.
Not that 25 isn't a lot already.


100 player servers however do add the posibility for effective repair/logistic squads to operate alongside the tanks.

you are right my bad I was still thinking in one-manned tanks

[carmikaze]

Huge realistic tank battles, hell yes!!!

[badmojo420]

It's not so much the number of tanks per battle that I was concerned about. It's really about their performance on the field. One man tanks operate better than two man tanks simply because there's no communication or network delay.

On top of the communication, with one manned tanks you would have more tanks per squad. Making squads more powerful and organized.

Even if you have 25 tanks per team, it's still going to be stupid and spammy because you're expecting a full server to know the ins and outs of being in a tank crew. Not only that, but you're expecting everyone to communicate perfectly with their partner(s).

Imagine if PR had a game mode where infantrymen had to pair up and the one guy with the gun was in a wheelchair that the other guy pushed around. Now throw 100 people into the game and expect it to run smoothly. Nobody would play that game mode, the same way nobody plays vehicle warfare now.

Honestly, I made this suggestion because I LOVE being in tank crews, but I've never once had fun in a vehicle warfare match. So please don't take my suggestion as me not wanting to communicate or be a team player. There's still communication and teamplay with other tanks to consider.