I have a problem with deviation

[IAJTHOMAS]

I don't think there's an awful lot wrong with it to be honest, although I would rather have:

1. Maxmium deviation decreased quite considerably, missing by 1m when you could literally fix a bayonet to the rifle and throw it at the person is quite irritating. I don't want to hit more, I just want to miss by less! I suppose its a psychological thing, although close misses at least supress.

2. Minimum deviation decreased slightly for alot of weapons, you should not be able to fire with 0 deviation with an assault rifle IMO, no matter how long you wait. Very close to 0, yes, but not a laser.

3. The time to get between these to states to be an exponential, so you can get a shot there, or there abouts relatively quickly, but it takes a long time to get to maximum accuracy.

Not sure how it would work in practice though, these things tend to need extensive play testing to get a feel for them...

[Oddsodz]

I Hate the deviation. I Have never liked it. I Am just sick to death of seeing a target 600/500/400/300/200/100/50 meters away (take your pick. It's the same all the time). I Go prone. I Aim with my M4/G3 with scope. I Wait 10 seconds with out moving anything. The target still has not seen me. He still has not moved. He does not know I am there. I Take the shot. MISS!! Bullet has decided that it will fly off to the upper left. WHY? Hell if I funking know. But his mate can sure as hell run up to me and dive on the ground and Inster-kill me with his vBF2 G36c medic style of play. The shear randomness of it is just a real pain in the funking ***.

[bloodthirsty_viking]

it takes practice man- just play for a bit.

ive played through the versions, and now, i can hit one-2 shot kills long distance moving targets accuritly

this is by far the best it has been scicnce i have played the game

[AdrwIvrsn]

I Wait 10 seconds with out moving anything. The target still has not seen me. He still has not moved. He does not know I am there. I Take the shot. MISS!! Bullet has decided that it will fly off to the upper left. WHY?

There is the case that, even if you wait for 10 seconds, the target is farther away than you think. And no bullet is ever perfect either, otherwise you would never survive the snipernoobs.

I'm in for a deviation bar, but I think the deviation itself is fine even without the bar. Although it makes me a slow shot sometimes, it makes me always check my targets before firing and gives me the time to see if the enemy is vulnerable enough to reveal myself but suppress them so they can't fire back. Sometimes shooting at what seems to be the best opportunity isn't always, especially when you have tracer rounds.

Although I will agree, a second seems to be much longer than it feels like.

[Lange]

The deviation isn't too bad to me in some cases however many times I do hate it after playing for months now and still not warming up to it with lots of "practice". What irks me the most is how much it blows in close quarter combat. The 3 round burst on the M4/M16 just does not work well in this game period. I can have a target near 50 meters away which is the developer recommended for auto fire stated in the loading screen and fire on 3 round burst and maybe land 1 shot after settling for at least a few seconds. Very frustrating that your lucky to land accurate burst fire only when its really close and it can still miss. The M16 just seems to have too much recoil on the burst especially with ACOG you can see a HUGE climb with 3 shots. I;ve watch several vids of a M16 and see not quite the recoil as ingame

YouTube - M16 shooting-burst fire

YouTube - M16 shooting-burst fire

Even with ACOG here on M4:

YouTube - Bored in Iraq, M4

Even with the ACOG scope on the M4 doesn't seem to have near the recoil climb as in game to me it has to seem exaggerated.

Also fully auto on a G3 assault rifle just seems near impossible. I've has soldiers 15-20 Meters away before on maps and try to unload on them and miss basically every shot and get owned. Its like that the heck? Even trying to shoot a G3 with a few burst shots over 20M doesn't seem to work at all either. Extremely frustrating.

Another account is i've had is I have no luck with the AK-74U. In close quarters i've stood in the corner of doors in rooms on korengal and a US guy come walking in and basically have not moved for a long time and shoot halk the clip to kill him and miss lets say 15 shots? Now should I miss like that at close quarters in real life?

Lets just say I donot get project realitys deviation system in close aurters often times when its darn near impossible to miss in RL you miss a lot in PR randomly. Extremely wierd in CQC.

Now I do like the distance deviation in PR and it works pretty well. However 5 seconds as a rule of thumb I don't agree with. I've seen people post that trained soldiers should not take 5 seconds to make a accurate shot up to a few hundred meters. I think it should be 3 or 3.5 seconds of settle time for shots within 200 M and 5 past that. To me this would be more realistic.

another thing I must point out is having good accuracy moving slowly, it seems i can never move at all and make any shots anywhere near target which to me is not realistic.
And to also say I have too been a victim of many misses of shooting a shot without moving for well over 5 seconds and miss completely. to the point sometimes when shots have landed as far as 5 M away at like 100 meters. Extremely frustrating as well and random.

Now I think PR's deviation system works pretty decently a lot of the time however I feel needs improvements in CBC and random shot directions even after settling, and lowering the settle time to a few hundred yards to 3 or 3.5 seconds. I do appreciate what the devs have done and have done well but those are my opinions on improvement.

[malv]

I agree with Lange here. Having no deviation indicator is fine if the deviation of the guns are reduced up close. As it stands now the AKs are far more usable and deadly than the iron sighted M4 in every combat scenario.

[AdrwIvrsn]

I think the issue with CQC is also the fact that without a marker or sticky note it's hard to tell the center of your screen. Otherwise, you could completely miss a target 5 meters away by shooting past his hip, or bring up your iron sights or aimpoint and move far too slowly.

Even if you don't have your gun at your cheek, I wouldn't imagine that for ranges like inside a building you would still have a pretty good idea of where your gun is pointing. But that is hard to simulate when the 1st person shooter view is just a superimposed gun and arms, and (I assume) engine limitations cannot let you move faster when you have the sights up in a CQC situation.

But in this case, I already presented the solution. It might be frowned opon, though.

[Doedel]

I agree completely with the OP. The current implementation of deviation is highly unrealistic and unintuitive gameplay-wise. IRL soldiers undergo months of weapons familiarization training and then years of repeateded use that allows them to learn how to handle their weapon appropriately and understand the quirks and operational characteristics of that weapon. While "crosshair" deviation indicators may seem crude and unrealistic, the fact is they are nothing more than a way to communicate to the average player what his soldier-character, being a trained and experienced warrior, would know. Otherwise, the player has absolutely no visual indication whatsoever of where his shots will actually go, as whether he whips his gun up and lets loose a barrage of automatic fire or carefully takes aim for 10 seconds the visual dynamic is identical.

The level and gradation of deviation is also unintuitive and rather unrealistic. One of the most pronounced examples is RPG and other LAT weapons. Bringing one up and firing after a second of aiming will often see the RPG shot out at ridiculous angles (up to ~45 degrees), often killing the firer as they seem to have a tendency to make this 45 degree turn at a downwards angle. Aiming at any target is impossible; even a large immobile vehicle parked 10 meters away becomes next to impossible to hit without first carefully kneeling, taking aim, letting your deviation settle for several seconds and then firing, all the while completely exposed and unprotected. And for most other small-arms, the immediate deviation, and deviation on full-auto, can often make it impossible to accurately hit a man-sized target mere feet away. I could run up to within 5 feet or a person and quickly spit on him more accurately than I can shoot him in PR.

Take for example this youtube video of some amateur firing an AR-15 from the hip: YouTube - Hip firing AR-15
While semi-auto, he's clearly able to consistently hit the water container from several dozen meters away firing on semi-auto. If that were PR, the deviation of his shots would be so great some of them would hit the ground out of the view of the camera.

The primary problem is that in the real world trained soldiers -- and even frequent users of weapons -- are able to learn and adapt to a weapon and become more efficient at its use, learning how to gauge where their shots will land based on how they're holding and aiming their weapon through practice the same way that one learns to throw a baseball more accurately the more times he does it. Unfortunately in PR we seem to be controlling random city-folk grabbed off the street and thrown into combat with only a "good luck" pat on the ***, and worse, they are delinquents who are incapable of learning as even after repeated use their horrifying inability to use weapons doesn't get any better (and there's nothing we as players can do to make them aim 'faster' or better).

This is indeed aggravating.

[Hunt3r]

Solution to solving this aiming business?

Identifying the problem, then fixing it. Finding another problem, then fixing it. You keep doing it until it's all fixed.

In all seriousness, how about decreasing max deviation, but make it so it still takes the same amount of time from max to min.

[Rissien]

About the suppression comment mentioned in the first page. It is one thing trainied for by modern forces. It is also common sense. The more you keep the enemies head is kept down the less fire directed back at you. While attending the bsg course we used supression a lot to cover friendly units as they pushed forward. Its not like in Vietnam where troops just fired off into the jungle, we even have weapons like the m249 saw to put rounds down range in a wall of lead to keep the enemy behind cover.

When it comes to accurate fire you usually take your time to fire anyways. Like the saying we had to repeat in a school. Front sight, front sight, slack, pause, squeeze. Trigger control, natural sway, breath, etc must be taken into account. Of course once rounds start flying past your head most of it goes out the window but the fundimentals still apply.
In PR I use my weapon in two ways for distance combat. Either I fire supressivly emtying my mags with single shots fairlly accurately keeping the enemy pinned or I holdd fire those extra few seconds for accurate shots.

We are not trained to shoot to kill though. We are trained to shoot to stop the target. Center mass is the largest part of the body and of course the easiest to hit. Wounding an enemy is actually more detrimental to opposing forces than outright killing them. You kill an opponent and its just one down. You wound them and you pull more off the line as they bring their wounded comrade back to safety and medical attention.

[Rudd]

Even with the ACOG scope on the M4 doesn't seem to have near the recoil climb as in game to me it has to seem exaggerated.

the man is controlling the recoil, ingame you need to control the recoil

Can the headbob animation be used to simulate weapon sway at all? Headbob hasn't really featured much until this latest version, so I wondered if there was some kind of new understanding?

[Human_001]

I can't love this games deviation either. I suggested the sway system with this and that idea in Private Message to Mod person long time ago, knowing it is said to be hardcoded. Person's answer was 'already tried' to put it simple.

I know it is a grief we can't put in weapon sway, after all this realistic weapon recoil etc.

After sticking with this mod since 0.6, I finally start to lean towards the 'deviation meter' idea. I thought it was ridiculous idea at first time I heard of such thing, but at this point, maybe its better than counting 1,2,3,4,5,..... Yes, indicator will be more 'simulator appropriate' than counting. Counting 123 as solution because weapon sway can't be depicted is what I think as arcade-ish way to solve this problem.

Here, I'll tell you the exact same thing I say to every other person has requested on this forum.

The Deviation system was added into PR so people can't sprint around a corner, Scope in, and headshot you. It was added so people can't Prone to the ground and snipe you in the face. It was added so you can't run around a corner and shoot a tank with a HAT, then run away.

It was added so you have to realisticly adjust for measures such as fatigue, weapon sway, weight, temperature, humidity, etc (Which CANNOT be implemented in a realistic fashion for the BF2 Engine)

Yes, but, it Is unreal when you setted up everything and calm down behind that building's corner and can't take a shot with HAT after quickly turn around a corner and shoot a tank with HAT in split second. Or with LAT. In this game, HAT and LAT weapons deviation goes maximum the moment you move just a little with WSAD keys. You can't hit run away jeep with LAT because of this deviation. Following moving car with LAT in urban situation, such as shooting LAT from building roof toward runaway Jeep on street below, (with only mouse movement) and deviation goes to maximum, fire, and LAT fly into sky.

[gazzthompson]

Also fully auto on a G3 assault rifle just seems near impossible. I've has soldiers 15-20 Meters away before on maps and try to unload on them and miss basically every shot and get owned. Its like that the heck? Even trying to shoot a G3 with a few burst shots over 20M doesn't seem to work at all either. Extremely frustrating.

G3 recoil - Xfire Video

counter act with mouse movement.

[maarit]

someone said in forum that if there is sway animation,how you would know where center of the screen is?
if enemy is 100meters away and your sight goes swayin maddly,can you still hit correctly?
if that only visual swaying make your aiming little harder i would like to try it. it would be better maybe than deviationbar.

i like deviation and its good to have somekind system.biggest problem for me is just visual.
its just odd looking when you shoot at close and you miss.its like in vanilla,they eat bullets!

[DankE_SPB]

someone said in forum that if there is sway animation,how you would know where center of the screen is?
if enemy is 100meters away and your sight goes swayin maddly,can you still hit correctly?
if that only visual swaying make your aiming little harder i would like to try it. it would be better maybe than deviationbar.

With some practice you can engage relatively well even under suppression shader, how small sway will make you loose the centre of screen feeling?
If it sways madly- it will look horrible, will bring no benefit and might cause motion sickness for some people.

current system is already very accurate, i simply cant get it, when people say "omg, remove that shite, i cant hit anything", meanwhile even 0.86\0.87 already had very accurate system and now in 0.9 its even more accurate

[Maverick]

I sense that the Topic Creator is irrelevant, as he does not read the DEV Blogs. Go have a look up there, very sexy stuff =)

[gazzthompson]

edit: lol wrong thread

[jerkzilla]

Here's my personal opinion on it:
1. For all city/small maps, get either aimpoint or irons. They're good up to around 200 meters, though, allegedly, some use them at up to 300 or more.

2. When you see the enemy, and he's already seen you, don't shoot, run to cover.

3. If the enemy is expecting you to come around a certain corner, then don't go around said corner (I know it sounds like obvious common sense, but I think this is neglected a lot).

4. Move to edge of whatever you're using as cover, wait 4 or 5 seconds, then move around to shoot.

5. If the enemy is within 50 meters, bring up sights (and aim, duh!) and spray while pulling the mouse down.

6. Never shoot (which also includes spraying) unsighted unless he's within 3 meters. No, I mean it, THREE METERS, AT MOST.

7. If you're attacking (as in, on the move), do not go prone if the enemy is within 300 meters. Crouching is accurate enough and way more mobile.

8. If you want to stay accurate, shoot at 1 - 2 second intervals.

Some points might be redundant in this thread, but this is roughly how I play with most infantry kits, or try to as I occasionally forget some points/act out of reflex due to pressure. I get good KDR and bad, but it depends a lot on the squad/team/tactics/mood/etc.

[gazzthompson]

2. When you see the enemy, and he's already seen you, don't shoot, run to cover.

This is a big one , i see it happen far to often, im stationary scanning around and a guy is sprinting across a street or something and sees me, he then proceeded to prone and challenge me... i just laugh and kill him with accurate shots and wander why oh why did he challenge me?

[Ts4EVER]

When we still had a PR type deviation system in FH2 we had an indicator in some weapons. Basically there were two lines at the bottom of the screen when you were sighted in, and the closer they were together, the more accurate your shot was.

As in:
|| <- wtfpwn accurate
|_____________| <broad side of barn not hittable