BVR Fire

[Sniperdog]

Beyond Visual Range Fire by Helicopters (30mm), and APC's (25-30mm HEAT).

For those who have never encountered this it is when you squad together a sqaud leader as a spotter (typically an officer or sniper) alongside a helicopter or APC. The squad leader spots infantry and places a marker on the map, then the gunner lets loose on the marker, typically with devastating results.

Do you think it's good or bad?


PRO's:

-Requires Teamwork (Spotter and crewed APC/Helo in communication)

-Realistic: BVR or Long Range fire via spotter is a very real part of modern combat.


CON's:

-Can be extremely frustrating if you are on the receiving end as often times it can be very hard to find the spotter, and all it takes is a map marker and all hell will break loose.

-On most vehicles the explosion effects of the projectiles do not render during BVR fire for some reason. Meaning squad members will just start dropping like flies and the vehicle has complete surprise until the first person dies or a destroyable object blows up. This is probably fixable.


THE FACTS:

(These stats are taken from the PR .91 Files)

Maximum View Distance on any PR Map: 1000m

Please Note: Damage Loss results in the Projectile losing a certain amount of its damage mid flight.

The standard Damage Loss in PR is exactly this:
From 1200m onward the bullet will begin to linearly lose damage until 2000m out at which point it will be at 40% of its initial damage.


HELO's:

APACHE GUN:
velocity: 1050 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 3150m
Damage Loss: Standard

HAVOK GUN:
velocity: 960 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 2880m
Damage Loss: Standard

Z10 GUN:
velocity: 900 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 2700m
Damage Loss: None

COBRAH GUN:
velocity: 1050 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 3150m
Damage Loss: None


APC's:

BMP GUN (30mm):
velocity: 960 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 2880m
Damage Loss: Standard

BRADLEY GUN (Heat):
velocity: 1100 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 3300m
Damage Loss: Standard

WZZ51 GUN (Heat):
velocity: 950 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 2850m
Damage Loss: Standard

LAV25 GUN (Heat):
velocity: 1110 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 3330m
Damage Loss: Standard


WARRIOR GUN (Heat):
velocity: 1070 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 3210m
Damage Loss: Standard

BTR80A GUN (Heat):
velocity: 960 m/s
projectile lifetime: 3 s
Range: 2880m
Damage Loss: Standard


I think BVR fire is fine as long as the effects issue is fixed, but I'm sure there are those out there who will disagree.

Discuss.

[Silly_Savage]

I don't find beyond visual range fire to be a problem.

However, when there is no visual or audio cue that you are being fired upon and your guys start dropping like flies out of nowhere, it does become frustrating trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

The life of a spotter is not always easy, you are watching through your GLTD so if you haven't got a body guard and are not in a hidden or little known location you'll probablly be found and....
Spotters depend on the run to the next flag techniques so that squads won't go searching for him.

[dtacs]

Its good, especially with the Apache/Havok fire. Nothing wrong with it really as it can either be highly successful or fail completely.

All depends on the pilots ability to stop the chopper from moving, so the gunner can be accurate.

[bad_nade]

although we did encounter an issue earlier today with APC rounds not having an end effect resulting in very glitchy deaths which as a problem im assuming is fixable

I've found this lack of end effect to be more the rule than the exception with BVR fire, which makes it feel yet another exploit to me.

[Sinn_Ah_Taggh]

I have been a victim of this kind of strategy many times,and i must say that it is a highly effective technique!

A few weeks ago i was in a squad defending MEC fortress from the onslaught of the US.
Setting up TOWs and AAs at the fortress we quickly came under heavy fire wich we couldnt locate.
Suddenly my guys where dying like flies with no apparent reason,but we later learned that it was the cobra hanging high in the sky with its 30mm pointed at us.

I think these kind tactics are ok,it takes some effort to pull of and as dtacs said,you either do it or you don't.
If you do pull it of you can become an angel of death and striking fear into your foes hearts,but if you fail.....well,there goes the tickets!

So i think it evens it self out.
Maybe something should (if possible) be done to the end effects,i dont think that would affect the performance of the crews applying these techniques.

[Adriaan]

I would be in favor of BVR, but with that also increased Anti-Air capabilities.

[Narco]

I would be in favor of BVR, but with that also increased Anti-Air capabilities.

There doesn't have to be something to counter every tactic.

I think BVR fire is fine, like the OP says it requires large amounts of teamwork and is tricky to pull off for both pilot and gunner. Just because it's frustrating for the infantry doesn't mean it's bad.

I use BVR fire all the time on Muttrah and it is hugely effective.

[Rudd]

I have NO problem with BVR, a chopper firing at targets using a spotter is an example of teamwork as far as I'm concerned.

HOWEVER! I do have a problem with the magic attack marker, we have a view distance we cannot avoid that, BVR can not be adequately avoided either, so let it be a teamwork feature, let it be less effective than if you were on target visually, let it be less effective than if you were on target visually with a laser on the marker.

This is just another reason to remove 3d markers in the game world, and keep them on the minimap only.

I don't accept the RL ranges arguement because we don't have radar, we don't have javelins, we don't have etc etc.

We are in a minature version of reality, we have to accept the technical limitations of BF2.

in this instance we should be looking at what gives the best gameplay, and I think BVR with a spotter is great gameplay, magic marker BVR is not.

[Tim270]

TOW BVR can be pretty brutal/Slightly op if done right. Chopper BVR on the other hand is a fine tactic on the basis that its really the only ticket cost effective way to use the helicopter.

[Web_cole]

Was playing on Kashan on TG the other day and our squad started dropping like flies "Dead- dead- dead- dead" we had no idea what it was at first, as there appeared to be no shots fired, and it was far to fast to be a sniper.

I have no real problem with BVR, but the fact that the shots sometimes are not visible is rather glitchy, and somewhat of an exploit (and obv not very realistic)

[Jigsaw]

BVR firing is a good thing.

I don't think that anyone can deny that; it promotes teamwork, working alongside a spotter with w/e vehicle; it is realistic as the same tactics are employed in RL and is comfortably the most efficient and risk averse method of using many vehicles.

What is not a good thing is the bug that occurs when firing BVR with some vehicles, where there is no end effect after a shot is firing, creating the "dropping like flies" effect where infantry just die without any visual representation for what has hit them. This occured to my squad last night on Kashan Desert on TG where I was standing in the entrance to one of the bunkers and just started bleeding. I had enough time to duck into cover before dying without even enough time to bring out a bandage.

My medic and several other members of the squad suffered the same fate. It was like being killed by a ghost and that is what needs sorting.

[NyteMyre]

I remember Return of Helmand Province community event where we had a whole plan of blowing up the scimitar. But the Scimitar never left the main base and just gave away indirect fire all over the map. Awesome, but very frustrating

[Mongolian_dude]

I think its more of a bad thing and is actually not particularly fun to be on the giving, receiving or observing end of BVR cannon, despite the level of practice, experience, teamwork and patience it requires to project effectively.
I prefer the more realistic, more hands-on approaches, however they generally yield less success and provide more risk in-game.

...mongol...

[ytman]

I think the 3d markers are important for discussion and explanation... when squad leading its like pointing your finger and saying "There!" When using BVR its like using a targeting system.

[Brummy]

I think some change in the 3d markers would be great.

I'd like to see the exact distance changed into approximate distance as in 0-50m, 50-100m, 100-150m, etc.

[CastleBravo]

This occured to my squad last night on Kashan Desert on TG where I was standing in the entrance to one of the bunkers and just started bleeding. I had enough time to duck into cover before dying without even enough time to bring out a bandage.

My medic and several other members of the squad suffered the same fate. It was like being killed by a ghost and that is what needs sorting.

Ya that is a bad thing, just dropping dead without any indication of what killed you doesn't convey to the rest of the squad the danger they are in, and doesn't give a visual or audio cue as to where the shells are coming from. I wasn't aware that you couldn't see the shots coming in; from my position spotting for the gunner I could see and hear the HE FRAG shells as they passed over my head towards your bunker.

Since I could see the shell all the way from when it was fired to impact I can tell that the firing effect doesn't "expire" while in flight. The effect simply does not register or draw for players that are a certain distance away from the weapon that was fired. Hopefully there is a setting the Devs can tweak that will change this.

[chrisweb89]

I think it is fine and there is one easy countermeasure to it, once you realize what is happening if they fix the explosion animations. You run to cover and get in a building, or you get at an angle where the fire can't reach you i you can find the general direction where it is coming from.

[octo-crab]

Had one round on Kashan where all the concrete statics around me at the bunkers were blowing up for no reason and when I finally realized what it was...it was toooo late.

But I think it's a viable tactic as long as the effects get fixed.

[Kaurava]

I'm all for it.
Just would like the effects to be corrected, of course.