Comprehensive Feedback of The Deployable TOW

[Fess|3-5|]

If there is a single thing in this game that breaks gameplay the most, it is the deployable TOW/HJ-8/whatever. Anyone who has played in a public server knows that it is not being used as it is intended, at least primarily. Don't get me wrong, I know TOW's in real life are used against bunkers, buildings, etc, but not nearly to the extent as in PR. As it stands, you will find in any and every server that the TOW is being abused in an anti-infantry format. A TOW on a prominent roof or in the hills (it's still possible even post patch) can lock down at least half of Muttrah to infantry and vehicle traffic, without much that can be done against it. The same thing with Qwai, Jabal, and really any other map if you're creative enough. In fact the only map in which I've found you have a chance against the TOW is the one you would least expect: Kashan. This is because vehicles can usually target the foundation of the emplacement at range, which is hard/impossible on many other maps.

Anyway, here is why the TOW is overpowered:

• FAST 360 Degree rotation
• Nearly 180 degrees movement in the Y axis
• Very Fast warm up time
• Very Fast Reload
• Large supply of ammo, with unlimited and easily accessible reserves Ammo (simply destroy and rebuild it)
• Very powerful zoom, coupled with no deviation = HE sniper rifle
• Low profile = Hard to engage at range
• Fast projectile travel time
• Silent. Vehicles make noise, and H-AT takes time to warm up and leave yourself exposed. No warning before death by TOW.
• Warhead has both giant splash damage AND incredible anti-vehicle power.
• User friendly system. Point and click on the bad guy, keep crosshairs on it even if it's moving.

All of the above factors result in the ultimate anti-everything platform. It takes no time to figure out how it works, and kills with impunity. I know it is possible to counter it, but it usually takes serious effort, and the fact of the matter is there are times when you simply can't (you're on a roof in north city, taking TOW's from Mosque for example. CAS isn't available or sucks). Remember, he has better range and zoom than you, perfect deviation, and kills everything within 20 feet of you.

What needs to be done:

• Reduce ammo to 3 shots + 1 in the tube. This way you have to make them count.
• Reduce splash damage by at least half, preferably to 1/4 of current value.
• Increase reload time to at MINIMUM 1 minute. Warm up time should be increased as well.
• Add Deviation of some sort. Even if it's only a meter in any direction at 800 yards, that's still enough to make it more fair, and actually require some talent to use.
• Increase traverse time, and restrict it in the Y axis to make it less useful from rooftops and against helicopters.
• Reduce the Zoom. I don't know what the RL values of that big optic on top is, but gameplay should always be first before reality.
• Give it a ticket value. Tank's and APC's have them, which is exactly what this is supposed to counter, so make it fair. You don't have to wait 20 minutes for a TOW to respawn.
• (This is only if it is given a ticket value) Due to it's increased value, make it reloadable BUT make it take a long time, require a manned supply truck (as in someone has to be in the driver's seat) and someone has to be in the gunner seat. In fact, a manned supply truck should be able to reload all vehicles and emplacements, albeit slowly.

The TOW is a defensive emplacement, remember. It was meant to prevent FOB's from getting rolled by Tanks. It shouldn't be anything more than a stationary H-AT.


Additionally, the model for the emplacement should be changed as well. Go code it yourself, I know, but I'm not going to because I don't know how. Anyway, I feel like World in Conflict uses a good model for it's Anti-Tank emplacement. Using a WiC style emplacement would improve the TOW for a number of reasons, on both sides of the issue.

• Added protection against infantry, means TOW player doesn't feel like he has to shoot to save himself
• Canopy prevents unfair engagement of helicopters.
• Bigger model gives a fair target for APC's and Tank's to engage, since the TOW has such a big target to hit when fighting against vehicles.

Here's the WiC Anti-Tank emplacement, for reference.

Front, with Bradley to scale


Rear, notice entrance point to emplacement.


Close up of side


Top View, with US Vehicles and Infantry for scale. (Sorry for darkness, In game cloud passed overhead)


Another shot to establish scale

All of the changes I mentioned should help balance out the TOW, and bring the "fun" back into this "game". It will even make it more realistic. Remember, a single missile costs about $20,000 Source, plus used inflation calculator. It's not to be used lightly.

One thing I've noticed in recent updates is that the amount of means to kill an armored vehicle (see: TOW's) has increased, while the number of these vehicles is decreasing, or not changing. Remember, it takes 10-20 minutes for a vehicle to respawn, but only 1 minute to replace a TOW. As someone who LOVES to use vehicles, it's not fun anymore, because I now have to worry about 2 railgun/TOW's plus 2 H-AT's that can be picked up by anyone for 5 minutes, plus 30 mines plus other vehicles. There's almost no point in getting in vehicles anymore. But then I get TOW sniped as infantry, so there's no point in playing I guess.


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The previous opinions are mostly my own, but I got a lot of ideas from the rest of [TF21], and the folks who responded in my thread on TG. It was almost unanimously agreed that this thing is overpowered, including by [R-DEV]fuzzhead. Jus' sayin'

Who am I? I've been playing PR off and on since .2, and regularly since the release of .5. .8 was my favorite release, because it was the best balance of 'Game' vs 'Reality'. But that's another argument. I appreciate the efforts of the DEV team to further this game, but I feel like a lot of things (Like the Deployable TOW. Seriously, did you guys even test it? So overpowered.) were lost in the details. I tried to bring this up in a joke topic about railguns, but no one quite caught it, and it actually (and humorously) offended some people. Get a life. Just remember everyone, this is first and foremost a game. If you want realism, enlist. Otherwise, play ACE on Arma2 or something.

[snooggums]

# Increase reload time to at MINIMUM 1 minute. Warm up time should be increased as well.
No, it is stationary and vulnerable after firing as it is, by reducing the number of shots the quick reload is not an issue. Warm up time could be increased, but I'd rather leave it since not firing means that even if you look around you have to hop in and out before the idle kick sets in as looking around and chatting doesn't count towards your idle status.

# Add Deviation of some sort. Even if it's only a meter in any direction at 800 yards, that's still enough to make it more fair, and actually require some talent to use.
I'm good on a quicker settle when turning than HAT but similar deviation markings to indicate settling. It would remove the snap to fire aspect it currently has by requiring the gunner to look in the direction of the enemy but the settle time needs to be short because you can't hide behind a hill and pop up to fire like you can with a HAT. Maybe 1 second to settle on perfect aim, with the four seconds of movement to full deviation (so 1 second of movement would need 1/4 of a second to settle).

[Fess|3-5|]

Warm up time could be increased, but I'd rather leave it since not firing means that even if you look around you have to hop in and out before the idle kick sets in as looking around and chatting doesn't count towards your idle status.

Since you can here vehicles approaching from across the map, idle time shouldn't be your concern, as you would still have plenty of time to hop in and let it warm up. And this increased warmup is meant to be a counter to the ability to just rebuild a new one as soon as the first runs out of ammo.

[Silly_Savage]

Excellent thread.

Also, I'd have to agree.

The TOW in its current form is a glorified H-AT on steroids, only, unmovable. Who knows though, it will probably sprout legs soon enough... God knows where the hell we'll be able to hide then.

I'd love to see the TOW get overhauled, or well, nerfed in the coming patch.

A quote by fuzzhead from the discussion pertaining to the TOW on the TG forums.

Yea TOW needs some adjustment.... I dont know what the "Refuses to change for v0.91" is but here I think is classic example of why you have to keep gameplay in mind over realism, because players every time (Even on TG) will use these splash weapons against infantry instead of intended targets...

So anyways heres my suggestion for TOW:

- decrease held rounds to 4+1 in tube
- reduce splash radius by half (if 10m, decrease to 5m)
- increase reload time, double (if 30s, increase to 60s)

I think that would greatly improve the situation while still keeping it useful against high profile targets.

[Jaymz]

I agree. Pretty much all developers will agree with you on at least most of those points.

It is currently a big problem and is commonly used in a way completely contradictory to it's existence. All the values like magnification, reload times and ammo counts are based on real life data provided by advisers (in fact, the TOW2A has more zoom irl...).

Adjustments to it's handling, deployment and damage are very much needed.

[Inca_Killa]

# Increase reload time to at MINIMUM 1 minute. Warm up time should be increased as well.
No, it is stationary and vulnerable after firing as it is, by reducing the number of shots the quick reload is not an issue. Warm up time could be increased, but I'd rather leave it since not firing means that even if you look around you have to hop in and out before the idle kick sets in as looking around and chatting doesn't count towards your idle status.

# Add Deviation of some sort. Even if it's only a meter in any direction at 800 yards, that's still enough to make it more fair, and actually require some talent to use.
I'm good on a quicker settle when turning than HAT but similar deviation markings to indicate settling. It would remove the snap to fire aspect it currently has by requiring the gunner to look in the direction of the enemy but the settle time needs to be short because you can't hide behind a hill and pop up to fire like you can with a HAT. Maybe 1 second to settle on perfect aim, with the four seconds of movement to full deviation (so 1 second of movement would need 1/4 of a second to settle).

I disagree with everything said here.

1. The tow can take out a tank in one hit to the front armor most of the time(reference: Kashan) what more do you want? Two tanks, or even three shouldn't have to fear heavy losses to a tow emplacement. There's not even time to send in a decoy, then go after it once its fired since it reloads in 20 seconds or less, it seems.

2. Hats should not be able to go from prone to standing with little/no deviation. When you get up off the floor you use your hands, so the "settle" time should be reset. Gopher hats FTL. Not to mention the HEAT rounds can't blow the invulnerable hills the infantry usually camp behind, nor can it blow up lots of the cover they use. IF there's no backdrop in which to fire upon tanks/apcs have little chance against the invulnerable HAT. All he has to do is pop up with no deviation, and the TOW moves at comparable speed with the COAX ammo. So there's nothing you can do.

So in conclusion, tow settle time should be similar to that of a HAT. It won't even really hurt the tow all that much, because he can hear armor from a mile away and prepare for it. This would also make flanking a known tow a viable tactic, and as long as the infantry report which way the tow is aiming the tanks can manage to take it out without losses.

Also, a question for anyone knowledgable here, does the TOW have the same damage as the main base tow or that of a Bradley/BMP? I'm pretty sure its a base tow, which should be changed to a bradley tow just like the TOW Humvee.

[IAJTHOMAS]

Obviously, there is a problem with the current TOW set-up. Personally, whilst I agree that ammo, reload and splash damage, should be tweaked, I'd rather see less TOW's on a map than have TOW which aren't overly effective.

They won't be much use if you can snipe them from a hull down position at range where they can't see you clearly without zoom, they're so large no-one can miss them or the wire-guided rockets from a tripod mount weapons platform randomly go all over the place (don't see how this adds an element of 'talent' personally), etc etc.

2 per map limit, for instance, would mean that a TOW which is well placed will be an important factor in determining the battle, and will punish a team that uses them poorly, while preventing the TOW spam that currently happens on a number of maps.

[Inca_Killa]

Obviously, there is a problem with the current TOW set-up. Personally, whilst I agree that ammo, reload and splash damage, should be tweaked, I'd rather see less TOW's on a map than have TOW which aren't overly effective.

They won't be much use if you can snipe them from a hull down position at range where they can't see you clearly without zoom, they're so large no-one can miss them or the wire-guided rockets from a tripod mount weapons platform randomly go all over the place (don't see how this adds an element of 'talent' personally), etc etc.

2 per map limit, for instance, would mean that a TOW which is well placed will be an important factor in determining the battle, and will punish a team that uses them poorly, while preventing the TOW spam that currently happens on a number of maps.

Starting from paragraph 2:
Give it only one level of zoom (x4, like LMG's) versus its current two levels of ungodly zoom. The 'randomization' I guess would make it a more even playing field for TOW vs Armor, and would also reduce TOW vs Helicopter/Jet. Armor has to work together, with driver/gunner and all that stuff, while the tow is like a single seated tank.

2. You mean reduce the current max amount of tows from 2 to 2? I see how this makes the battle more strategic .

Edit: I also forgot to add that tanks should be rewarded for using good tactics(ie hull down.), not punished or nerfed.

[Brummy]

I saw this thread on TG, I liked the ideas posted.

I also have to agree, the TOWs are currently abused, even on high quality servers. A reduction of splash damage, zoom and maybe even turn angle is what should be looked at in my opinion.

I disagree with everything said here.

1. The tow can take out a tank in one hit to the front armor most of the time(reference: Kashan) what more do you want? Two tanks, or even three shouldn't have to fear heavy losses to a tow emplacement. There's not even time to send in a decoy, then go after it once its fired since it reloads in 20 seconds or less, it seems.

2. Hats should not be able to go from prone to standing with little/no deviation. When you get up off the floor you use your hands, so the "settle" time should be reset. Gopher hats FTL. Not to mention the HEAT rounds can't blow the invulnerable hills the infantry usually camp behind, nor can it blow up lots of the cover they use. IF there's no backdrop in which to fire upon tanks/apcs have little chance against the invulnerable HAT. All he has to do is pop up with no deviation, and the TOW moves at comparable speed with the COAX ammo. So there's nothing you can do.

So in conclusion, tow settle time should be similar to that of a HAT. It won't even really hurt the tow all that much, because he can hear armor from a mile away and prepare for it. This would also make flanking a known tow a viable tactic, and as long as the infantry report which way the tow is aiming the tanks can manage to take it out without losses.

Also, a question for anyone knowledgable here, does the TOW have the same damage as the main base tow or that of a Bradley/BMP? I'm pretty sure its a base tow, which should be changed to a bradley tow just like the TOW Humvee.

Mmhmm what? This post doesn't make sense.

You disagree in the first two paragraphs and then agree?

I think you misunderstood his post, what snooggums posted were suggestions, not what he thinks the current situation is.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

Personally I don't have a problem (probably as I am ALWAYS infantry though) on most 'normal' public servers they are often badly placed, old out of date ones are seldom destroyed and it is quite rare to see them manned most the time.

I sincerely agree that anti inf sniping is a bit cheap, but it is so easy to shoot out the guy manning.

Another nerf option is to make them a lot harder to guide, (with a large centre aim mark) I always had a really hard time in VBF with the heli launched wire guided missiles, I assume that was a TOW. If possible add friction to reduce the traverse speed as it looks damn silly too, also applicable to .50's on vehicles.

To reduce the mines which can be placed would make life more bearable for armour (excuse the OT, but relevant I feel).

I assume the DEV's where forcing RL teamwork when implementing the TOW with an infantry screen in front of armour, that may work in high level gameplay, but as we all know on normal servers the armour often goes 1337 on it's own.

[Fess|3-5|]

Jaymz;1344561']I agree. Pretty much all developers will agree with you on at least most of those points.

It is currently a big problem and is commonly used in a way completely contradictory to it's existence. All the values like magnification, reload times and ammo counts are based on real life data provided by advisers (in fact, the TOW2A has more zoom irl...).

Adjustments to it's handling, deployment and damage are very much needed.

Thanks for clarification.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again, real life values does not make the game work like real life. ArmA2 can pull it off. PR can't.

[goguapsy]

Some points are agreeable, other points are teamwork-related (ask where is the TOW!)

It IS pretty hard to get hit while manning the TOW (just keep spinning around), and it's awfully accurate at long ranges. IMO we should use a non-directional rocket (just fires straight rather than being controlable).

[Nitneuc]

I'm glad someone finally decided to create this thread (too lazy to do it myself).

Infantry/armored_vehicles balance used to be fine in 0.87 but today it's pretty hard to score with tanks/IFV. The stationary missiles launchers is the n°1 problem (it's good to know it's something which will be looked into) but the AT kits staying on the ground for 5 mn are another.
When I first read about this feature in the changelog I was rather enthusiastic but now I'm not sure anymore. The number of AT kit actually used on the field has increased and as a vehicle crew you can't do anything to prevent people you shoot to pick it up again and again, which is somehow very frustrating.

[IAJTHOMAS]

Starting from paragraph 2:
Give it only one level of zoom (x4, like LMG's) versus its current two levels of ungodly zoom. The 'randomization' I guess would make it a more even playing field for TOW vs Armor, and would also reduce TOW vs Helicopter/Jet. Armor has to work together, with driver/gunner and all that stuff, while the tow is like a single seated tank.

2. You mean reduce the current max amount of tows from 2 to 2? I see how this makes the battle more strategic .

Edit: I also forgot to add that tanks should be rewarded for using good tactics(ie hull down.), not punished or nerfed.

Tanks have equally ungodly zoom, I don't see why the TOW should not also be able to engage targets at range

I don't feel tanks should have a 'level playing field' against TOWs, in the same way I don't believe that a chopper should have a 'fair' chance against an AAV, or a tank against an A-10. You should fear your counter, and need to work with other assets to eliminate it. However, at the moment I do feel that the TOWs have it too easy.

TOW's require building, FB and supplies near, good placement and are static after all that. They should only get one suprise shot off, if your team is communicating. I wouldn't be adverse to needing 3 supply crates to build a TOW to reward good lines of supply, rather than just one man in a truck getting a full operating FB. i.e. 1 crate= FB + wire/foxholes, 2=HMGs, 3=TOW.

I also meant to say the absolute limit should be 2, with a requirement of 2 FBs per emplacement.

This, combined with ammo, warm-up, splash and reload time nerfs should help to minimise the current problems, whilst leaving them a potent threat to armour, as they should be.

[goguapsy]

Yeah forgot to say, it HAS a lot of ammo like most people said.

[joethepro36]

IMO just taking the splash damage down far enough to say 1m or removing it completely would be fine. It's splash damage that causes all the issues against infantry, if a TOW has to actually hit an infantryman dead on then you arn't going to see the TOW used against them.

[PuffNStuff]

I agree. Today while I was playing on Muttrah we had placed a tow on top of north hotel. When the cobra finally got eyes on us and decided to attack from above. It only took one second, a quick hand and timing to destroy an inbound cobra from nearly above me. It was a great shot, but an unrealistic one.

[Ford_Jam]

Nice.

As I've posted in another thread, a possibility for the TOW is to have them controllable by the WASD keys like the AT Cannons on Fools Road/Yamalia and have their rotate speed reduced, but not as slow as the cannons.

[Hunt3r]

Just have a cap on rotation rate and increase reload times.

[Nebsif]

I'm glad someone finally decided to create this thread (too lazy to do it myself).

Infantry/armored_vehicles balance used to be fine in 0.87 but today it's pretty hard to score with tanks/IFV. The stationary missiles launchers is the n°1 problem (it's good to know it's something which will be looked into) but the AT kits staying on the ground for 5 mn are another.
When I first read about this feature in the changelog I was rather enthusiastic but now I'm not sure anymore. The number of AT kit actually used on the field has increased and as a vehicle crew you can't do anything to prevent people you shoot to pick it up again and again, which is somehow very frustrating.

+1. Tank's worst and deadliest enemy became infantry, If Im a tank crewman I have to pray for enemy tanks otherwise im pretty useless. Inf can revive when killed by heat rounds, they can prone -> crouch/stand with their HAT kit with zero deviation and.. the ToW.. sometmes people build FoBs on Silent Eagle close to tank spawns just to camp with it.