Some problems with PR?

[Heskey]

I met the guys I play online with through Project Reality some 3 years ago, and whilst I still love the game to bits, many of my friends groan when I mention playing a round or two of it, and have seemingly moved on to other things. I've made a thread on our forums to find out why that is, and due to some good points being raised, I thought I quote them here for open discussion:

* Game changes have made me dislike it. The PR team continues trying to shoe horn in 'realism' features that do not work in a public game. Rallies is a casing point. Keeping a group together is almost impossible now because of the way the unit falls apart once people start dieing.
* Lack of freedom to approach the battlefield as I wish to do so. In PR you are stuck doing this or doing that 90% of the time. After playing ArmA heavy for the last few years I want to be able to have a real choice in how I approach my objective not just do you want to come in from the North or South. Also being unable to access a critical kit for your chosen approach due to it having been used by some nobber in a squad that didn't need it.

Point 1 I don't think can really be blamed on the game; that's just simple replayability at work, I guess.

Point 2, not sure what to make of it myself but included for others.

* Many maps have been ruined. Fools Road is my casing point. Hill 68 is not a blooming objective. That hilltop estate is however, as is that train yard.

Completely agreed. There are some brilliant maps of undergrowth / woodland with the odd base scattered here or there, but they're completely neglected due to the complete random AAS3 logic. I can't remember the last time I fought over helipad/radio tower on Fool's Road because random hills now take presidence.

I agree in principle that AAS3 keeps the game from getting stale like AAS2 where everyone knew all the point-cap-orders on every map, but I think it's overstepped the mark in undermining map design in favour of spontinuity which has brought the game in full circle back to being boring (due to lack of creativity of random cap points).

* The strange scale. Pr now has massive maps that forever feel empty and the amount of assets in teams of 32. If I had my way snipers and jets would be deleted.

This sums up one of my feelings in a nutshell; we struggle to keep jets fitted on a 4km map (the max we can have), and although we've strained to keep those assets in the game, all it's done is created problems for infantry and the 32-max players per team in general. Repeal back to 2/3km map sizes that utilize choppers, infantry, and ground assets, and just forget about jets?

Plus with so many arguments about snipers - Why not just scrap them? With them and jets gone, it's more people on the field, less people sitting at main.

* That fact that no matter how they dress it up Pr is still very much battlefield two. No matter how much they claim realism. Stealing a landie and bombing it towards the cache and chucking a nade at it is just as likely to work as a tactical advance under the cover of an APC.

Again, simple mechanics I imagine; not much can be done with this point?

* Respawns lead to 'who cares' behaviour, I find I like the scared of being shot feeling you get in arma much much more interesting.

I've said myself we should have a game mode where there's no respawns; a small skirmish mode where 2 teams fight over an objective to the last man - I can't find the thread I made. (no just because I used the word skirmish it doesn't mean "BUT WE ALREADY HAVE SKIRMISH!!!"

Anyway, discuss?

[Rudd]

Yeah PR has moved in different directions, some of those directions were good imo and some weren't 100%

e.g. I would agree that AASv3 isnt the most suitable for some maps, especially the random hill maps

* Game changes have made me dislike it. The PR team continues trying to shoe horn in 'realism' features that do not work in a public game. Rallies is a casing point. Keeping a group together is almost impossible now because of the way the unit falls apart once people start dieing.

though I certainly disagree with this point its not hard at all, its harder but not hard, get a ride with a chopper, spawn at a FB whatever you want.

* Respawns lead to 'who cares' behaviour, I find I like the scared of being shot feeling you get in arma much much more interesting.

RPs are not compatible with this point either imo. Though I would agree that some tweaking could be useful to make people more afraid, such as in increase in bullet power accross the board.

* The strange scale. Pr now has massive maps that forever feel empty and the amount of assets in teams of 32. If I had my way snipers and jets would be deleted.

it is my opinion that the minimal amount of assets should be on any map, so that there are no more than 16 crewman/pilot slots at any point.

snipers, I can take or leave them. Though it would be good imo if both sniper and hat can only be requested at the main base, this would decrease the amount of pick up, fire, drop behaviour I've seen which keeps the kit out of circulation for 15 mins or whatever, as well as decreasing the frequency of those kits imo. Though it would be sad to see all the effort thats been put in to them go to waste

maybe increase the time it takes for those kits to return to teh kit pool?

[Heskey]

it is my opinion that the minimal amount of assets should be on any map, so that there are no more than 16 crewman/pilot slots at any point.

This is a good point, making sure no more than 50% of the team can feasibly be in a vehicle, which at best allows for an Infantry contingency of 2x 6 man squads and 1x 3 man squad (support? Logistics?)

As much as I like tanks, APCs, helicopter support etc, I think PR should withdraw itself slightly and get back to focusing on INFANTRY with a little help from armoured friends. Not armoured behemoths on the field with a few footmen struggling to keep up with the pace of the battle.

Hell, imagine a good ol' city map with a load of infantry squads, and ONE tank to support and move with the infantry. Now that'd be good.

[Jigsaw]

I feel ya Heskey *looks pointedly at fellow DM members *




Seriously I met my entire clan through PR, every single one of us at one point or another were involved in the PRT and the majority met through there. Now only three or four of us play PR with any regularity and although I can occasionally get a full squad together its a rare and beautiful thing. Part of the problem with this ofc is that everyone is out of practice so we then fail and rage quit leading to no more PR for a while.

Yeh, /rant

I agree with a few of your points but really I can't see that all that much has changed, for me it is the same awesome game that i've enjoyed for ages now and it makes me truly sad when I mention a game of PR and my mates shrug it off and say they're gonna play Civ4/GRID/TF2/ArmA 2/Freelancer/whatever other game they're into at the time.

I think that AASv3 is highly appropriate in certain circumstances but you're right about the random hills being wrong for a CP, one of the reasons I can't ever bring myself to play Qinling. I do think that 4km maps are the way to go, and I look at the success of Silent Eagle and Yamalia as proof of this point, as both manage to mix strong infantry work with appropriate heavy assets so fingers crossed that this trend can continue.

[Cheditor]

Agree with some of the points but alot i disagree.

* That fact that no matter how they dress it up Pr is still very much battlefield two. No matter how much they claim realism. Stealing a landie and bombing it towards the cache and chucking a nade at it is just as likely to work as a tactical advance under the cover of an APC.

Here i feel it's more of a player issue, yes that can work but if the enemy team aren't just bored or are actually defending well then that will be impossible as MGs, RPGs etc can just rip you up.

* The strange scale. Pr now has massive maps that forever feel empty and the amount of assets in teams of 32. If I had my way snipers and jets would be deleted.

Kind of agree with this, i prefer the 2km maps in general as im normally infantry but i see how people who like armour like the bigger spaces.

* Respawns lead to 'who cares' behaviour, I find I like the scared of being shot feeling you get in arma much much more interesting.

This is actually why i love PR. Many a time in arma/arma 2 at the start of a mission im told get into the helicopter, as this guy has taken the squad leader position i obey get in and we die ..... oh well that was a waste of 5 minutes :/ In PR if something random kills me ahhh well time to respawn, not sitting out and missing the fun.

And Jig us fail? Talk for yourself

[freeway]

RPs get destroyed too easy and the waiting time (10 mins ) make it almost impossible to stick together , in my clan almost no1 wants to play AAS that is sad , miss the old days when it was 0.85 no1 was complaining . we are missing something ? dont know but 1 thing for sure not many players like that , i know this isnt a place for this rally thing .

[AquaticPenguin]

If I had my way snipers and jets would be deleted.

This is my view to an extent. I don't feel that 4kmx4km is enough for jets since they have huge turning circles, and the combat area can be quite easily covered by an abundance of AA emplacements/vehicles. I've also found when flying a jet that it is difficult to maintain situational awareness when you have such a limited FOV and can't see around yourself without taking your hands off the controls (finding where an AA missile was fired from is a prime example - but otherwise just generally looking around for threats/working out your orientation is difficult). They may be fun for some people, but I don't know many players who use jets, and for the rest it is difficult to learn to fly in an actual game when it's very easy to make a mistake.

With snipers I feel they don't really play a part because their usefulness is so hit and miss. There are often people misusing it and although that is inevitable I feel even when the kit is used properly it's not a great asset to the team. Without realistic ballistics/bullet drop there's no real skill to using the sniper, so it turns into point and click, And because of this very few people actually use it to help the team. Instead spending the round trying to shoot people in the face rather than calling out objectives. In my opinion the marksman kit is a much more realistic and fair kit to use. It's not pinpoint accurate, so at range it serves more for the purpose of harassing fire as well as accurate fire when it's needed.

[Snazz]

The PR team continues trying to shoe horn in 'realism' features that do not work in a public game.

Clearly it does work, PR is primarily played in public matches.

Rallies is a casing point. Keeping a group together is almost impossible now because of the way the unit falls apart once people start dieing.

Almost impossible? This person sure likes to exaggerate.

Units should fall apart when people start dieing, that's kind of the point. You have temporary rallies, FOBs and transport assets to regroup your squad after suffering losses.

Many maps have been ruined. Fools Road is my casing point. Hill 68 is not a blooming objective. That hilltop estate is however, as is that train yard.

Whilst fighting over random hills isn't as interesting as a landmark, it's at least a bit of variety compared to the same objectives every time. It also makes sense that you would fight to control high ground, regardless of whether there's anything special on it.

* The strange scale. Pr now has massive maps that forever feel empty and the amount of assets in teams of 32.

That's just how it is with Battlefield or any game with large open maps. It's better IMO than cramming people in COD size maps just so it feels more action packed.

* That fact that no matter how they dress it up Pr is still very much battlefield two. No matter how much they claim realism.

It's a mod for BF2 with a part focus on realism, it's not pretending to be some advanced reality simulator.

The BF2 engine has a lot of good features and a strong player base. IMO gameplay and community is far more important than graphics and advanced realism features.

Stealing a landie and bombing it towards the cache and chucking a nade at it is just as likely to work as a tactical advance under the cover of an APC.

I doubt it.

If I had my way snipers and jets would be deleted.

Now that's something I actually agree with, both use up precious player numbers for little gameplay impact. They're also associated with a lot of unneccesary drama due to their exclusive nature.

Then there's the realism factor. Jets operating within 4x4km, taking off from airbases in the same area. As well as snipers fighting alongside regular soldiers, as opposed to just marksmen.

* Respawns lead to 'who cares' behaviour, I find I like the scared of being shot feeling you get in arma much much more interesting.

I don't witness much 'who cares' behavior. Besides that just contradicts the earlier complaint about it being 'almost impossible' to regroup your squad. If you really had such difficulty keeping your squad together you would naturally be very cautious about being shot.

[Exterior]

Hell, imagine a good ol' city map with a load of infantry squads, and ONE tank to support and move with the infantry. Now that'd be good.

you mean like sunset city? ejod city?...smaller maps but still very very fun

[boilerrat]

One thing I feel people gripe about the sniper is because AR's can kill them so easy they feel useless.

I hate taking sniper because anything else can touch me, even when I'm supposed to have range on them.

[LeChuckle]

hehe groaning indeed. the game appears to me like it "should" be better with the new versions, but at the same time im very reluctant to play it and i dont know why.

[karambaitos]

The careless behavior is a problem with SLs and players not the game, if you have a good SL he will make the whole team stick together and people not die its all about the SL imo.
I hate people that keep QQing about PR
Its a game that you get for free or 10 dollars which other wise would be sold for 50-60$ and if it bothers you THAT much go make your self your own mod or whole game in the unreal engine

[_casualtyUR]

I had the opportunity to play vBF2 the other day and it's amazing how different the mentality of the squad is different. If people are looking for that simplistic type of play then PR is not for them. Sure the lack of rally are a ***** but as Sl, do something about it, build something rather rushing the enemy.

The maps are huge so that more FOBs could be built, so aircraft can fly and to get a sense of the massiveness of the battlefield.

I do think a stronger bullet could be useful. I'm always surprised when the wounded kills a healthy soldier. This would force the wounded to withdraw from the field and seek medical attention and not continue until the third bullet strikes.