More Realistic Aiming

[Tactical Advantage]

I know much has been dicussed about the accuracy of sniper rifles and there aiming, but never much dicussed about the aiming at close quarters with your iron sights. Im guessing many of you have shot a real fire arm, and the one thing you must do to properly aim your rifle is line up the rear sight fixture with the front sight fixture. In every game I've ever seen that uses iron sights, the sights are already perfectly alined and all you have to do is point and shot.

In real life it isnt that way, for example, lets say the distance between your rear sight fixture and your front sight fixture is 12"(1'), and your front sight is .0625"(1/16") to the left of where it should be, your target is 100 yards away, or 3600" away, so for every 12" your projectile is traveling .0625" to the left, once it reach its target it is alittle more than 1 1/2 feet to the left!!! Tell me that will not affect your shot.

Now i've never played any Battlefield games, so if im not making sense, sorry. But lets say to draw up your iron sights you right click. Once the sights are drawn up you could press and hold the rigtht click to adjust your front sight fixture so it's lined up properly with your rear sight fixtures if you want an accurate shot. Or you could press and hold right click to bring up your sights and adjust them at the same time. And after firing, once you release the trigger, your front site would no longer be properly lined up due to the recoil of the gun, and would have to be lined up again to continue to shoot accuratly, and lets say the longer you fire, the farther your front sight fixture would move out of line with the rear sight fixture. And im not talking about your front sight being 1 foot off to the right, maybe 1 1/2"-2" at most to make it realistic. And say to readjust your front sight fixture, you would click and hold right click to readjust, and to lower your iron sights you could just right click and not hold it down. Then you could just move your mouse to move your weapon like normal.

So basically, you would draw up your iron sight, the rear sight sight would remain in the same area for the most part, while the front sight may be an inch toward the right, you would then adjust your front sight to line up with the rear sight if you wanted to shoot accuratly.

This wouldnt affect shorter range shoots so much, but it would diffently affect longer range shots while using your iron sights. Plus it would be muh more realistc, after awhile it would probably become second nature really, for things such as an ambush it would be a real advantage for the ambushing side, since they could already have the advantage of having thier weapons aimed, while the team being ambushed wouldnt have time to really accuratly aim their weapons, and would have to really just spray and pray while they find cover, and even if they manage to find cover, they would still have to be able to aim there sight properly to have a better chance of hitting their target. And imagine trying to properly aim your weapon while you got bullets buzzing by you, tell me that would not be intense.

And it would make optics such as red dots and scopes alot more useful since you dont have to line anything up with those types of optics, just point and shoot. So people like Special Ops would have a greater advantage when it comes to aiming than your standard rifleman. Overall, i like the idea and i think it would give Project Reality a really neat realistic feel to it. Well, what do you guys think.

P.S. I haven't been on in quite some time, so whats the current estimated release date for the demo and game?

[BlakeJr]

Solo, it's not too much for a game. Infiltration (for UT99) has had a similar way of "aligning" the sights as Tactical Advantage described in his post.
Although in Infiltration what you do is you control the breathing to stabilize your weapon while aiming.
It is very intuitive and does not feel very annoying.
Also Infiltration uses the actual 3D model for the player to aim with.

If you want a game for the masses, make a CS clone.
If you want realism, then,by Jove, let's make it as real as can be!

[dreddwales]

What about when the weapon if fired, after you have lined up front and rear sights? Do you have to keep lineing up both sights after each projectile is fired? Using both sights for one shot would work but to have to keep resetting the sights during a burst of fire would be very difficult indeed, especially if your opponent is on the move, firing from the hip and spraying your position.
Iron sights should be set ready as the gun is lifted to the players face. The player should be rewarded with greatly increased accuracy (mainly in short burst or single shot fire) but the cost should be a very restricted field of view with 'camera shake' or an effect to simulate recoil. Recoil from a mid body firing position would not affect your head/ view as much as it would if the gun is lifted to the face/ shoulder. Recoil should also be increased if the player is standing , less for knelt and less again for prone!
I would like to see an animation of the gun being lifted to and from the face/ shoulder but animating every single weapon would be alot of work! So accurate iron sights would be great!
Nice thought on lining up both iron sights but it just does not seem practical.

[Tactical Advantage]

I thought you guys would probably think of it as to realistic, i guess you would still like some arcade style to it, as for your questions. But i still like the idea. And thanks for the support Blake...

For Solos Question- Lining up the sights could be done one of two ways, it depends on how the shooter likes it. When weapon is down you can hold down the right click and the sights will be brought up, then you can continue to hold the right click and line up your sights.
Or you can right click and not hold it down to bring up your sights, to line the sights up, then just hold down right click and release when your sights are lined up. If your sights are already up, and you right click and do not hold it down, your weapon will be lowered.

For dreddwales question- Your sights would start to become not lined up as you fire, say you fire a single round down range, your sights may shift alittle or maybe none at all, reason being, that if you fire a single round, the gun is easier to keep undercontrol of, for example, i've shot several military firearms such as the MP5, M16A2, M1 Garand, etc. When firing the M16A2 in single shot, i found it much easier to keep the sight lined up and on target as i fired, but as soon as i started firing burst, the sights become much harder to keep lined up due to the frequent recoil of firing full-auto. So as i said before, if firing single shot, your sights would hardly change their line up, but if you where to switch to burst, or full-auto on guns such as the MP5, the sights wouldn't be inline as much after firing, so the more you fire per trigger pull, the more your sights will become not lined up, but if you just used single shot, you could fire multiple times and hardly notice a diffrence in positioning of your iron sights.

Also as one of you said, recoil should be more well standing than crouching or in prone. Now if you really wanted to make it realistic, also add the screen shaking as dreddwales said, that would be one realistic game.

Also, what Solo said, changing stance should mess with your sights alittle, and things like running also would, but say you were crouched down and moving slowly, your sights may sway alittle, but not much.

[Napalmas]

I myself have fired a fair few of fire arms and really, its not all that hard to keep the front and rear sites aligned. I am not saying it is easy but compared to what you want to do it is much easier. There are some things that you can't implement into this mod.

[Napalmas]

Oh yes I have as a matter of fact and I know that that if your sights are not lined up you will miss, but what I am saying is that in real life it is much easier to line up your sights than it will be if this is implemented.

[Tactical Advantage]

Solo, i never said it would do it automatically, you would hold down right click, and well holding it down, if you move your mouse, you will move your front sight fixture. So it would be done manually. But actually guys, i think you guys are kinda making it sound to hard, but i think once you got used to it, you could do it in under 1 sec, it may not be perfectly lined up, but goog enough to hit maedium range targets at 75 yards or so, and for longer range targets, it would really come down to who sees who first for who would have a better chane of survival.

[snipurs]

we have to remember that, were flying in as a army not you so lineing up sites shouldnt be very hard, if you had to line up your own sights then id just spray fire to would be usless standing, sitting to line up the sights then take a shot the target could have ran away by then or have shot you back or some one behind you could get you,

my rifle that i should (scoped and none scoped) i know that ever time i bring the rifle up i know i dont have to set my self up all i have to do is put it to my face, its called muscle memory and ever time i brought it up i would have my sights set up for me, (of couse i had to breathe and also wait into it goes into the 10 spot ^^) but my muscles know every time i bring up my rifle i dont have to resight my eyes or anything. now think about a soldier would is trained to kill i think hes muscles would be more toned then i am and more faster/ know where the "hot spot" of hes rifle is. even a spec opz dude well lets not get into that.

[dreddwales]

Have any of you been unfortunate enough to install Red Orchestra 3.2 for UT2004 ....... they have removed the cross hair completly and you can only aim with the iron sights. With only your visual sences at work while playing a FPS, you cannot possibly get a feel for the correct gun position i.e to fire from the waist. You need a cross hair to at least give you a good idea, the cross hair should obviously change in accuracy depending on what you are doing or what position your in but you cannot do without one. Have a look at the iron sights in RO 3.2, not much fun to use at all!!!!

[Tactical Advantage]

Well Snipurs, you did bring up a good point.

[Napalmas]

See that's what I'm talking about. what sniperus said. Whenever I go out to the range I just lift the rifle and the sights are pretty much aligned.

[Talon]

I myself have fired a fair few of fire arms and really, its not all that hard to keep the front and rear sites aligned. I am not saying it is easy but compared to what you want to do it is much easier. There are some things that you can't implement into this mod.

I agree, this would be a bit too much. Have any of you played America's Army? That's what I'd like to see implemented here. A breathing function, CEM(combat effectiveness metere), and stance bonuses.

CEM basically is the core of this. It's a tiny bar on the right, that is highest when you haven't moved in a tiny bit (IE aren't breathing hard) and are lying prone, with no bullets whizzing in your direction.

For example a saw ripping off over your head drops it to almost nothing and trying to hit anything like that is impossible. Crouched is more accurate then standing, and prone is the most accurate, just like in real life.

Anyway, its fun, and intuitive... and about as real as most games need to get.

[TAW_Doedel]

For example a saw ripping off over your head drops it to almost nothing and trying to hit anything like that is impossible. Crouched is more accurate then standing, and prone is the most accurate, just like in real life.

Except for something like the RPG-7, which would be next to impossible to fire in the prone position, a la America's Army.. as with most other shoulder-fired weapons.

[Talon]

For example a saw ripping off over your head drops it to almost nothing and trying to hit anything like that is impossible. Crouched is more accurate then standing, and prone is the most accurate, just like in real life.

Except for something like the RPG-7, which would be next to impossible to fire in the prone position, a la America's Army.. as with most other shoulder-fired weapons.

Of course, I was referring to rifles etc... I completely agree that you need to be standing for shoulder-fire weapons.

Err... also, no firing while jumping, can't remember if this is covered but it's a major pet peeve of mine to see people bunny hopping around.

[Figisaacnewton]

and just make the jumping height more realistic, and fix the animations if need be. they are kinda wierd in the bf con vid, especially while the guy is sprinting and jumping...

[BlakeJr]

Have any of you been unfortunate enough to install Red Orchestra 3.2 for UT2004 ....... they have removed the cross hair completly and you can only aim with the iron sights. With only your visual sences at work while playing a FPS, you cannot possibly get a feel for the correct gun position i.e to fire from the waist. You need a cross hair to at least give you a good idea, the cross hair should obviously change in accuracy depending on what you are doing or what position your in but you cannot do without one. Have a look at the iron sights in RO 3.2, not much fun to use at all!!!!

I really hate to tell you this but there will be NO crosshairs in this mod.
Why not? Well, you don't really need it, just bring your weapon up to aim.
Point it at your target and shoot. Remember this i not going to be an arcade game. vanilla BF2 will let you have that I think.

What is so difficult with actually using the sights on the weaponmodels that are being made so lovingly and in such fantastic detail by the PR modellers?
Just right click once to bring the weapon up to aim. If the situation allows and the distance to your target requires it, right click again AND HOLD it down to stabilize and align. Then shoot.
It all really depends on the situation you're in at any given time.

I don't understand why the crosshair should still be used in ANY FPS today!
It certainly has no place in Project Reality.