People on these forums need to stop contradicting themselves. People complain about unnecessary positions taking infantry away from the fight. Someone suggests a feature which is somewhat realistic and puts more infantry on the ground, but then the suggestion gets shot down for "Lack of Teamwork", which is complete BS.
You would'nt type out in chat to a tank on the other side of the map "Hey you, sucky tank, do more teamwork now!". So why do people want to see more teamwork implemented for a role that most of them never occupy or come into direct contact with anyway? People need to form their own opinions instead of spouting what they think gives them bownie points in the community.
[/Sarcasm]Heres a teamwork suggestion. Lets only allow someone to shoot their weapon if they are within a 25m radius of another friendly unit [/endsarcasm]
USA-Forever932 wrote:We penalize and penalize for supposedly lonewolfing (How going out and marking targets for the team from any position on the map is lonewolfing I have no idea) but we never penalize for wasting player positions. People find it unneeded to protect a 10 ticket asset with an extra machinegunner, but they find it in the field of good teamwork to have a sniper lug around an extra player just for a set of binoculars and a radio? If what you say is true, what stops a lone player from driving a logi out of main base, by himself, without any support to get some repairs to the tanks on Kashan desert?
A two man sniper team is alot more effective than a one man, why would you choose not to take an extra man with you for security (protecting tickets) as well as giving you an extra set of eyes for spotting targets, marking targets, communicating with the commander, leaving the sniper to take out the enemy. If you can show me a one man sniper team doing all of this better than a two man, then I will shut up.
USA-Forever932 wrote:Or we could just put him in an actual squad, putting more people on the field and enhancing the main battle. There are plenty of scenarios where having this officer is just plain redundant I'll go ahead and list them.
Sitting in Fallujah west main
Sitting in Korengal Valley main
Sitting in Qwai River mountains by the processing facility.
Sitting in the mountain valley on Muttrah.
Some of the flags which are not in play On Barracuda for China
Sitting on the Castle in Operation Archer.
I have witnessed lone wolf snipers literally SPAMMING my communications channel with requests for markers for different targets all around the map. I had two snipers. that game, giving them officers would have taken valuable infantry or vehicle or aircraft operators off of the field just for the silly purpose of having someone look through a GTLD because we believe that anyone doing anything even remotely alone hurts teamwork no matter what it is.
Because 9 times out of 10, that sniper is dicking about by himself, doing nothing for the team. Also, does one man extra in a squad make the overall battle that much worse? I have never been in a situation where I have thought "This game would go alot better if I had one extra guy in my infantry squad, even if he was doing absolutely nothing".
You are bringing the spotters role down in order to justify a radio, why? snipers are limited in order to make them need a second man in their squad, you need two people in a squad to request the bloody thing. Should I make the assumption that at least one of those snipers had pissed off an infantry squad by joining, requesting the kit and then buggering off?
USA-Forever932 wrote:Following this logic, we should also be able to list the following things, as they involve only one person, as lonewolfing and detrimental to teamwork gameplay.
Transport choppers dropping crates automatically near friendly forces.
Attack Hueys doing strafing runs without lases.
Logistics trucks doing repairs without escort.
Lonewolf AA vehicles perching themselves up on the Kashan mountains and waiting for targets where jets have been previously reported.
An Officer going out by himself and reporting targets.
Any sort of cache-ninja.
Generalising, and apart from the first two points, the rest aren't any better than having more than one person doing the same, so where your point is I'm not sure, maybe we should all just one man vehicles in order to make this game more teamwork friendly? :S
USA-Forever932 wrote:You know, if we weren't sticking people in redundant positions like spotting on a 32 man team, we actually might be able to crew all of those wonderful assets that collect rust in the main base and we might not have to make so many development concessions due to playercount. Oh yeah, maybe so many infantry squads wouldn't have to operate at half staff because the Cobra squad and all the sniper teams all need officers to hold their hands, even if they're at main!
You do understand that a spotter doesn't just spot targets? Also, I have never, ever, seen an asset rusting in main, apart from the occasional humvee, and even then it's usually snapped up by an infantry squad respawning. "All" of the sniper teams is also a redundant argument, to my knowledge you can only have one sniper squad per side (unless a sniper rifle is procured from the other side), it isn't the end of the world because one man has to go and help someone else out.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:A two man sniper team is alot more effective than a one man why would you choose not to take an extra man with you for security (protecting tickets) as well as giving you an extra set of eyes for spotting targets, marking targets, communicating with the commander, leaving the sniper to take out the enemy.
A two man AR team is a lot more effective than a one man why would you choose not to take an extra man with you for security (protecting tickets) as well as giving you an extra set of eyes for spotting targets, marking targets, communicating with the commander, leaving the AR to take out the enemy?
Because it's impractical and unnecessary. The AR gunner has binoculars, his scope works well enough in those mountains. It's not like he's somehow blind without someone sitting there with binoculars. He also isn't flying a helicopter, so talking to the commander won't put you in danger of crashes. Hell, we should also put ARs with radios but we BOTH know that this is impractical and that he is well enough on his own.
However, a Sniper's purpose is to gather intelligence, be the eyes and ears of the CO and to eliminate high value targets. Since the sniper has just as good eyes as the AR gunner, he should have no problem spotting things on his own and he clearly doesn't as shown below. Where he is clearly capable of eliminating targets without problems.
That extra man can just be on the field driving a vehicle or pulling infantry work. Maybe he can sit on the extra tank seat and protect from bomb cars and give covering fire. Or maybe he can run logistics support.
No spotter, lots of kills.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:why would you choose not to take an extra man with you for security (protecting tickets)
Because he should be on the field killing enemies and capping flags, not sitting there with binoculars. Just give me the radio and I can be just as effective about it.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Because 9 times out of 10, that sniper is dicking about by himself, doing nothing for the team. Also, does one man extra in a squad make the overall battle that much worse? I have never been in a situation where I have thought "This game would go a lot better if I had one extra guy in my infantry squad, even if he was doing absolutely nothing"
You can't hardcode players and YES, I have often been in situtations where I stare enviously at fat sniper squads while there are a bunch of infantry squads who would give anything for that extra guy. It seems to be the general consensus here that 1 or 2 extra players not on the battle field is reason enough to deny perfectly realistic assets to the game. If we deny loader machine gun, spotter helicopter and repair crews and then make up clever (Not trying to undermine the devs here in any way) ways to simulate the function of those vehicles then why don't we axe the sniperteam here and just simulate him by giving him the radio?
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:You are bringing the spotters role down in order to justify a radio, why?
Because the spotter is redundant and unneeded on a 32 man team where a single man can do the job just as well as shown in the video above and in many other places. You can try it yourself, go on Tactical Gamer where there is a GOOD commander about. Then take a sniper kit on Korengal valley and spend your time updating him about enemy movements in the valley. See how much you will love to have a radio. Make sure you don't bring a spotter.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Snipers are limited in order to make them need a second man in their squad, you need two people in a squad to request the bloody thing.
That was a feature designed by the developers who, just as they have the power to put it in, have the power to change it completely around.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Should I make the assumption that at least one of those snipers had pissed off an infantry squad by joining, requesting the kit and then buggering off?
Pissed off Infantry? maybe. Useful? Certainly. A Kit thief? Absoultely.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:Generalising, and apart from the first two points, the rest aren't any better than having more than one person doing the same, so where your point is I'm not sure, maybe we should all just one man vehicles in order to make this game more teamwork friendly? :S
Logi trucks are often just as effective for gameplay when they drive out on their own as long as they pick a decent route. However, they should technically be escorted.
Anti Air vehicles have a dual purpose in the field of Armored warfare, Area denial and protecting the tanks. While it would be nice to have a 2 man AA squad, it's not needed because you can seat switch in AA and provide the extra cover due to the fact that your niche is just so small (There are so few aircraft in PR that will actually require AA to engage effectively) that you just can afford to seat swap. The sniper is like the AA vehicle in that he has a small niche is staying hidden, taking out a few targets and giving intel. He does not *Need* a spotter in order to do any of this.
BlackwaterSaxon wrote:You do understand that a spotter doesn't just spot targets? Also, I have never, ever, seen an asset rusting in main, apart from the occasional humvee, and even then it's usually snapped up by an infantry squad respawning. "All" of the sniper teams is also a redundant argument, to my knowledge you can only have one sniper squad per side (unless a sniper rifle is procured from the other side), it isn't the end of the world because one man has to go and help someone else out.
Kashan desert
6-8man tank
6-8 man APCs
2 transport choppers
1 Littlebird
2 Jets or 4 chopper crew
Leaving the rest left over for whatever infantry we have? Honestly, we need all the people we can get. Let the sniper spot for the team and flyboys on his own so we can keep these assets running.
It's been the end of a lot of things because there are already too many assets. Freeing up this man would go a long way.
No, you can have two sniper teams as there are 2 sniper kits. Doing it the sniper/spotter way takes 4 people off of the field when two people can do it just as good.
Expatriate Gamer wrote:Who do I complain to about these power boner Moderators? Just because someone called someone a Boy? and another Person agreed with someone? Is this a Joke?
User warned for being off topic and not understanding how to complain about Moderators.
It was a deragtory slur against adult blacks to call boy. Maybe not anymore and its used more generically. A sweed does not need to know, but I am surprised you dont know where that comes from. Also I reaffirm, Radio plz. If you want a spotter that has a rope and somebody to have a radio you just used up 3 people for a sniper squad.
USA-Forever932 wrote:I'm going to take an educated guess here and say that changing kits around isn't very hard for the developers especially when compared to the other developments for PR.
You quite missed the point, and addressed the only thing about my comment that was slightly off topic. Whether it is a waste of time or not, it won't change game play drastically for the better.
Giving a snipers a radio will not change their play style. If going by the number of SLs that actually use the SL radio as is, then you will be giving them something they don't even know how to use.
Sniper teams that already use the sniper kit as intended, always have a two man element, with one of them being a squad leader anyways. Giving the sniper kit a radio won't change the fact that people will still join your squad, request the sniper kit, then leave to create their own squad. Or that people will still use the sniper kit to try and get 'awesome' KDRs, but end up losing the kit to the enemy because of such a mind set.
USA-Forever932 wrote:Anti Air vehicles have a dual purpose in the field of Armored warfare, Area denial and protecting the tanks. While it would be nice to have a 2 man AA squad, it's not needed because you can seat switch in AA and provide the extra cover due to the fact that your niche is just so small (There are so few aircraft in PR that will actually require AA to engage effectively) that you just can afford to seat swap. The sniper is like the AA vehicle in that he has a small niche is staying hidden, taking out a few targets and giving intel. He does not *Need* a spotter in order to do any of this.
.......Doing it the sniper/spotter way takes 4 people off of the field when two people can do it just as good.
Just like 1 person in an AA vehicle can manage, a lone sniper can manage. But saying they can do it 'just as good' is highly inaccurate.
Lets say the tank column your protecting with the AA vehicle decides to move up 500m. You're now forced to get in the drivers seat, leaving them, and yourself vulnerable. You drive up with the tanks, and BOOM!!! You start getting hit by missiles from an attack helicopter. Or bombs from a jet. Do you think at this point the tank column will be like "oh it's cool tank3 just got blown to hell, because the AA is just as good with 1 person, we'll just sit here for 30seconds while he gets his turret warmed up."
It's the same with the lone sniper. In a perfect scenario, 1 man sniping is doable. But when you need to move locations, or you start getting flanked, or even when you need to pull a patch or look at your map, you could use another person. Perhaps you're some kind of god when it comes to the pistols, but personally i'd rather have someone with an assault rifle going in ahead to clear rooms.
I'm not trying to say that nobody should ever go off alone in an AA or with a sniper kit. But, you need to be aware of your limitations.
[/endsarcasm]
