Karbala: Strategies for balancing the hardest map for Insurgents.

[dtacs]

*Disclaimer* Everything said in this post is my own experience and opinion. Some people may have completely different experiences, and to avoid having to say that all the way through my post, I'll say it now.

Abstract: Currently, Karbala is one of the most imbalanced maps in the game. I personally have not seen Insurgents win this map since release, due to the overwhelming BLUFOR loadout and often repeated cache locations. I've been counting and I have played Karbala 21 times, majority on the BLUFOR side. I have determined that there are a few strategies that could be put in place to balance this map out.

This map is a timeless classic of PR, it is big, offers a wide variety of strategies for both sides, and is often very fun when the fighting gets intense. However, at the current rate, Insurgents are losing at a staggering speed. I have won as BLUFOR in a personal record of 20 minutes, destroying three caches in the same place in one round.

Brass tax is in BOLD.

Problems:

1) BLUFOR ASSETS

The main and most prominent problem of Karbala is the amount of heavy assets that the US are given. I will do a breakdown of each asset and either suggest a modification or complete removal:

• 1 M1A1 Abrams (non respawning)

Currently the most powerful asset on the map, the Abrams is incredibly effective at pummeling the Insurgents. I have seen one shoot two caches itself, simply by shooting into room upon room hoping to hit something. Rather than an infantry support weapon or spearhead of an attack, the tank is being used as a mobile artillery gun, made for just firing randomly rather than fire support for the grunts. By avoiding the city and staying in the desert areas, the Abrams can often stay up for the whole game. It isn't common to find that the crew get 50+ kills by shooting randomly into the city. My suggestion is that the tank is completely removed from Karbala, and either replaced by a M2 Bradley or an additional Stryker be added.
My reasoning for this is that the Bradley is a lesser force to be reckoned with, and there is more chance for the bomb cars and Gary to destroy it. By having a .50 gunner on the tank constantly scanning, its a fat chance that the suicide vehicles will even get within damage range of the tank.

• 2 Strykers on what I assume is a 10 minute death-to-respawn timer

Strykers are an obvious choice for the map. Large, open areas where mechanized infantry companies are highly effective. Its a very balanced system, only taking two RPGs to dispatch while still having a decent weapon to defend itself. Currently one of the most balanced vehicles in the game, and its respawn timer is appropriate. An additional Stryker with either a MGS or a Mk19 would compliment the removal of the tank or the addition of a Bradley, adding large quantities of smaller fire rather than one large burst ALA HEAT tank shell.

• 3 Transport Humvees

An excellent vehicle, balanced with the ability to transport a whole squad. The number is fine, and as a squad leader I find this the best vehicle on the map when operating a squad.

• 1 CROWS Humvee (remotely operated 50 cal)

Also used in the same manner as the tank, the CROWS is often used by a 2 man team for running around racking up kills. Often placed next to a firebase out in the desert for intel gathering by killing waves upon waves of struggling Insurgents, the inaccuracy of the RPG isn't a problem for this stupidly overpowered vehicle. I can understand the reasoning for removing an infantry spot to balance it out, but it doesn't work in practice. Unfortunately enough, the CROWS is a realistic vehicle, so it simply must remain. No matter what changes are added, players will always use it in this fashion, rather than moving around with infantry as intended.

• 1 Transport truck
• 2 Logistics trucks

Both obvious and mandatory assets. A removal of the trans truck would encourage the transport of infantry by Strykers/a Bradley, but thats just me.

• 1 Little Bird with Hydras/Miniguns
• 1 Little Bird with Miniguns

Currently the bane of the Insurgents' existence. Time after time after time, these choppers destroy caches and get away scot free. Hydras have such a large radius that even solid cover is no match, and the dispatch of infantry is a simple task. Technicals can't get the elevation to shoot them down, with the LBs often doing vertical dives and going straight back up again. AA is simple ineffective and a waste of time, while the quad cannons at the mosque are hardly ever used, nor get the ability to shoot them down.

The B3 housing area - made of completely destructible buildings - is no chance for a combined onslaught of the tank and little birds. I've seen caches destroyed here with 0 intervention from infantry, solely vehicles.

I believe the LBs should either be completely removed or when the Kiowa is done, only a single one put in. A Kiowa using only cannons would be much more balanced for infantry fire support, and hopefully wouldn't be able to take out as many caches from the air. I mean come on, what Insurgent exposes their goods to choppers flying around over the city, or in the open for that matter?

2) CACHE LOCATIONS
Majority of Insurgents aren't stupid, they kill hundreds of coalition soldiers with crude, often ineffective weaponry and keep the civilian populace living in a state of fear. If this is the case, why would such forces keep their weaponry, ammunition, rifles, RPGs and IED materials in some of the stupidest places in the city? I understand that not all buildings can be entered and that the BLUFOR must have some ability to find caches, but some of the current areas are so blatantly obvious that it makes you wonder who on earth would have thought of such a spot. An example is on a building near the hotel, occasionally a cache will spawn there that is completely unreachable without a grapple. It is open to the air, and I've seen Insurgents valiantly try to jump off in an attempt to get down, only to be killed.

I'm no coder, but the current cache algorithm is obviously flawed. I believe each release the cache spawn locations should be completely changed, adding some more variety rather than the ones you see spawning in the same location over and over again. Some areas are completely devoid of caches, highlighted in this image. I suggest adding more cache locations in the inner city, making it a bit harder for the BLUFOR to penetrate. Specifically areas around the mosque, highlighted below.


Obviously I cite Psyrus' system here, but apparently the situation is being looked at.

3) INCREASING THE ARSENAL OF THE INSURGENTS

• My SVD Cache spawn suggestion would vastly improve the ability for the Insurgents to engage from long range. Yesterday, I was in Psyrus' squad in which we simply went around to each cache location, sat in the desert 100m away, and spammed HMG's and TOWs as the friendly infantry moved in from a separate direction. The current Insurgent long range combat situation is pretty dismal, with the snipers often being used ineffectively. An SVD kit per cache would keep FSG's heads down, and encourage careful movement from the BLUFOR.

• Now this one may be a little over the top, but according to the latter part of the this article on Wikipedia (no confirmed source available), Tandem RPG's have seen use in Iraq, scoring a mobility kill on an Abrams. My suggestion is adding a non-respawning, Tandem RPG kit with one missile, giving the Insurgents a large anti armor capability while still being very valuable and risky.

In conclusion, Karbala is a great map. It has become a staple Insurency map and it should stay that way, but in its current state its highly imbalanced and not much fun for the Insurgents.

dtacs

[Pronck]

They should also give 1 Respawning Arty-IED kit (As you don't have one in this map). And also more bombcars, when you have 7 caches, and lots of civilian cars, why the hell do you have such few bombcars?

And maybe they could make some cellars in the B3 compound for the caches, so you must use your infantry to take the caches out.

[dtacs]

They should also give 1 Respawning Arty-IED kit (As you don't have one in this map). And also more bombcars, when you have 7 caches, and lots of civilian cars, why the hell do you have such few bombcars?

Good idea, forgot to mention that, however the downfall of an ArtyIED kit is that it would essentially block of armor movements into the city, which is currently the problem causing them to sit outside firing into the city.

[Pronck]

I would also suggest to add some "small" villages at the East side of the river, so they could also let the caches spawn there, but you got some more cover for it.

[myles]

*Disclaimer*

• 1 Little Bird with Hydras/Miniguns
• 1 Little Bird with Miniguns

Both LBs are Hydras with miniguns. there is no LB with just miniguns

[Rudd]

some good points here, I would agree that the tank makes life very hard replacing a stryker with a bradley and removing teh tank might be pretty good, but I'm not sure if its common to see strykers and bradleys together.

though I won't lie...I miss the apache

[sweedensniiperr]

yeah, us keep dominating this map..most of the times.

totally agree with the b3 area point, ridiculous.

and if iirc the kiowa is done

[dtacs]

some good points here, I would agree that the tank makes life very hard replacing a stryker with a bradley and removing teh tank might be pretty good, but I'm not sure if its common to see strykers and bradleys together.

Well, there are Bradleys operating in Iraq so I thought it would be appropriate. I can't find exact details in the current US deployment in Karbala (if they are using tanks, etc), all I could find was this:

U.S. forces transferred Forward Operating Base Lima to Iraqi Security Forces Sept. 28, 2005 in Karbala.
Iraqi Police, Army commanders and government representatives along with Lt. Col. James Oliver, commander of the 1st Battalion, 198th Armored Brigade, attended the ceremony transferring local security responsibilities to the Iraqi Police and the 4th Brigade, 8th Division, Greater Iraqi Army.
The 2nd Battalion, 114th Field Artillery has assisted the people of Karbala since mid-January, providing security and infrastructure support.
Approximately 68 projects totaling $21.5 million have been completed to improve the city. The projects included water, sanitation, education, electrical, medical and humanitarian aid.
The battalion is a U.S. Army unit assigned to the 155th Brigade Combat Team serving with the II Marine Expeditionary Force and has relocated to other bases throughout their area of operations. Sufficient forces remain available to offer any assistance as needed.

[Nebsif]

The CROWs humvee is BS. It can survive a direct RPG hit, or worst case go on fire with all crew surviving, and why a 1km map like fallujah (1km map with less US assets) has two arty ied kits and this one has 0.
Its like the creator of this map or who ever edited the asset/kit setup totally forgot about balance and/or is a complete US fanboi (no offense ).

[Teh0]

That kind of city in real life? NEVER. Americans can easily go around the city and get anywhere. Tank can just stay outside the city and still do lots of work. Why not 2x bradley instead of a tank?

[Nebsif]

That kind of city in real life? NEVER. Americans can easily go around the city and get anywhere. Tank can just stay outside the city and still do lots of work. Why not 2x bradley instead of a tank?

That too, it just feels WRONG, while theres some kind of transition from desert to the city in Al Basrah, theres nothing like that here and the whole city feels way too unreal.
Hope it will be replaced by Mosul.

[placiddavid]

why does everyone want balance? balance does not equal realism.

[boilerrat]

I totally agree with everything you said dtacs, especially the SVDs on caches.

Currently, insurgents have little no long-range capability. So the blufor stands out of our fire range and racks of kills instead of actually going for caches with infantry.

A lot of caches are taken down by tanks and bradleys, very little are taken down by infantry... because they are too busy in the hills racking up intel so the tank can go get it.

[dtacs]

why does everyone want balance? balance does not equal realism.

Because balance makes for a good, fun game. Who would honestly want to play a game where one side completely pummels another?

[a0jer]

Who would honestly want to play a game where one side completely pummels another?

Some people do, I dunno why.

On this map I have seen a TOW, hmg, crow, lav, grenadier team and an abrams lined up in the desert north of the west village, both caches were in the village next to each other. It was a very, very frustrating situation.

[FunkDoctorSpot]

So what? Its the insurgents fault, if they run around in the open
Their environment is the city, and right there are the caches
So they should be ambushing with their fullauto weapons from behind, when the enemy come into the city

And since its suicide for armor to drive around in the city, there wont be any tanks or shit
Just play the way your fraction is supposed to play, and everything is allright

If you want long range firefights, go and play AAS

[dtacs]

So what? Its the insurgents fault, if they run around in the open
Their environment is the city, and right there are the caches
So they should be ambushing with their fullauto weapons from behind, when the enemy come into the city

Hmm not so true, since there are multiple cache areas seperate to the city, which you have to walk to or get a take a vehicle and risk getting killed by an armored asset.

And since its suicide for armor to drive around in the city, there wont be any tanks or shit
Just play the way your fraction is supposed to play, and everything is allright

The whole 'insurgents should wait and ambush' system is total bullshit. That is assuming the BLUFOR are doing a patrol through the city, but they aren't since they are searching for CACHES.

No Insurgent is going to set up a huge ambush when there are enemies blocks away destroying their caches. Thats a pipedream.

f you want long range firefights, go and play AAS

Please read the OP, or don't bother replying. I'm asking for a balance rather than the current system where it is all about long range engagements on Karbala.

[USA-Forever932]

I think Karbala is fine where it is. Just played a round as the USMC and lost. I was the commander, every squad followed orders. There were tactics and teamwork. We hit caches properly and lost. We suffered in deep city fights and managed to come off well in outer city fights with losses. Eventually USA was worn down due to slight problems in teamwork. The map is decently balanced as far as I can tell.

YES, 3 caches were blown up by LBs but only after air threats were killed by other forces working with the LBs and after they had been spotted. This map, IMO, Is one of the most well balanced maps in PR at it's current state.

[WhatMan]

I think Karbala is fine where it is. Just played a round as the USMC and lost. I was the commander, every squad followed orders. There were tactics and teamwork. We hit caches properly and lost. We suffered in deep city fights and managed to come off well in outer city fights with losses. Eventually USA was worn down due to slight problems in teamwork. The map is decently balanced as far as I can tell.

YES, 3 caches were blown up by LBs but only after air threats were killed by other forces working with the LBs and after they had been spotted. This map, IMO, Is one of the most well balanced maps in PR at it's current state.

Because you love being on a the US side am I right?

[FunkDoctorSpot]

Hmm not so true, since there are multiple cache areas seperate to the city, which you have to walk to or get a take a vehicle and risk getting killed by an armored asset.


The whole 'insurgents should wait and ambush' system is total bullshit. That is assuming the BLUFOR are doing a patrol through the city, but they aren't since they are searching for CACHES.

No Insurgent is going to set up a huge ambush when there are enemies blocks away destroying their caches. Thats a pipedream.


Please read the OP, or don't bother replying. I'm asking for a balance rather than the current system where it is all about long range engagements on Karbala.

I dont realy know what your problem is

Most of the caches are not shootable (is this even a word) from outside of the city, so infantry will have to go in
I rarely see the Littlebirds up more than 15minutes, so if the BLUFOR-Team manages to kill 3 caches with them, either your team sucked, or their team deserved it