Qinling - Chinese WZ11 is intially hard to counter

[Zrix]

Qinling isn't played much nowadays, but those few times I've played it on 0.91 the same issue has popped up.
At the round start the Chinese WZ11 scout chopper with it's dual MG's is able to bring down all of the British transports without any resistance. I've seen it happen several times, often the WZ11 goes to the next British flag and wait for the choppers to arrive, and then chase them down. It's really quite effective.

There is no real counter until the jets and/or Apache spawns, but even then it can be hard to bring it down as it can be very evasive, and those vehicles have other air targets to focus on.
The AA vehicles are just not fast enough to be of any help. The team can't wait for them to roll onto the flag before moving out of main. It would make the choppers pointless.

I'm all for asymmetrical balance, but in this case I think it's not quite working out.

The solutions I can think of right away are:
1) Remove the WZ11.
2) Put the WZ11 on delayed spawn.
3) Add an attack LB for the British team. However this is probably not realistic, nor do I like to encourage chopper dog fights.


I bet there are other solutions and opinions about this, please discuss.

[Brummy]

Use the MBTs or APCs!?

[Andy[EEF]]

Remove delayed asset spawns for jets at the start again like in previous versions and bring back the apache/Z-10 for the 64 version. Problem solved.

ps. Qinling needs more flags- usually a typical game lasts about half an hour when I play it.

[sharpie]

Anti-Aircraft is awesomesauce.
Hint Hint

[Zrix]

Use the MBTs or APCs!?

To shoot down high and fast flying scout choppers? That ain't happening if the pilot is any good.

Anti-Aircraft is awesomesauce.
Hint Hint

Are you referring to the AA vehicles that takes ages to drive to the LZs where the choppers are killed, the ones carried by the infantry inside the choppers being shot down, the constructable FB AA that require crates from the choppers being shot down, or the AA in main where the enemy isn't flying?

[Rissien]

To shoot down high and fast flying scout choppers? That ain't happening if the pilot is any good.

Are you referring to the AA vehicles that takes ages to drive to the LZs where the choppers are killed, the ones carried by the infantry inside the choppers being shot down, the constructable FB AA that require crates from the choppers being shot down, or the AA in main where the enemy isn't flying?

You underestimate just how easily a tank in game can kill a chopper, you get a good angle and lead it properly and its done for.

[Excavus]

H[=Rissien;1406044']You underestimate just how easily a tank in game can kill a chopper, you get a good angle and lead it properly and its done for.

Which IMO is bullshit. Tanks shouldn't be able to shoot down helicopters, end of story. They need to do something about this. I've seen an Abrams shoot down an SU-25 on Kashan once.

[Andy[EEF]]

Which IMO is bullshit. Tanks shouldn't be able to shoot down helicopters, end of story. They need to do something about this. I've seen an Abrams shoot down an SU-25 on Kashan once.

If the pilot is stupid enough to fly low enough for a tank to elevate to hit him, he deserves to be killed. Helicopters are also not invincible. Just because you are flying fast doesn't mean a decent tank gunner can't hit you.

What would you do in a tank if you saw a helicopter right infront of you? fire a rubber shell at him? no, you'd put a HEAT shell right through him. Goodbye helo. Same as with a jet- if an SU-25/A10 was flying low enough to give you an angle on him, and flying in a straight line, you'd shoot him as well. And if you can hit it, it's well worth one or two shells to do it because it's 11 tickets and a valuble asset to the enemy team.

[Rudd]

put British transport on delayed instead, then the AA vehicles are already in place.

[Cheditor]

Which IMO is bullshit. Tanks shouldn't be able to shoot down helicopters, end of story.

That is actually false, there is a documentary series called Helicopter wars, very interesting, one was about a lynx in iraq 2003 trying to find a Iraqi tank firing airburst rounds at it. Helicopter Wars: Videos - Duel In The Desert - National Geographic Channel - UK

[Hunt3r]

Yeah, but in reality if you know where a tank is, it's very easy to stay well out of range from their attacks, and shoot them down with impunity. In PR, nowhere is safe because tank rounds are lasers.

[Excavus]

[quote=""'Andy[EEF"];1406419']If the pilot is stupid enough to fly low enough for a tank to elevate to hit him, he deserves to be killed. Helicopters are also not invincible. Just because you are flying fast doesn't mean a decent tank gunner can't hit you.

What would you do in a tank if you saw a helicopter right infront of you? fire a rubber shell at him? no, you'd put a HEAT shell right through him. Goodbye helo. Same as with a jet- if an SU-25/A10 was flying low enough to give you an angle on him, and flying in a straight line, you'd shoot him as well. And if you can hit it, it's well worth one or two shells to do it because it's 11 tickets and a valuble asset to the enemy team.[/quote]

In real life, tank gunners don't have the precision mouse to aim. They have to use joysticks, which are a little more clumsier. Some older tanks like T-72s and T-55s are even harder.

[quote="Cheditor""]That is actually false, there is a documentary series called Helicopter wars, very interesting, one was about a lynx in iraq 2003 trying to find a Iraqi tank firing airburst rounds at it. Helicopter Wars: Videos - Duel In The Desert - National Geographic Channel - UK[/quote]

This is different, these are airburst rounds, guaranteeing a much larger chance of a hit. Not the laser accurate HEAT shells that people fire ingame.

[Zrix]

H[=Rissien;1406044']You underestimate just how easily a tank in game can kill a chopper, you get a good angle and lead it properly and its done for.

I know it's possible and happens from time to time. But it's not that effective against skilled air crews.
Would you like to be a tanker on Kashan 32 without any AA whatsoever?

Also, if the Brit choppers have to wait for the tanks, the Chinese team will get a big headstart, and probably set up camp at the first Brit flag before they even arrive.

put British transport on delayed instead, then the AA vehicles are already in place.

Yea, that works, but only if the Chinese choppers gets the same treatment. If not, the Chinese team will have a FB with TOW and AA up at the first Brit flag before the land vehicles arrive.

It's a semi-mirrored map, like Kashan. I don't think anyone would call Kashan balanced if the MEC had a spawn and TOWs at North Village at round start.




We could discuss the effectiveness of 'whatever' vs choppers forever, the fact is that I've seen the same thing happen 3 out of 3 times I've played the map in the latest patch.
I wouldn't mind being wrong here, but I think map balance is really important in PR, so it's something worth looking into.

[Alex6714]

That is actually false, there is a documentary series called Helicopter wars, very interesting, one was about a lynx in iraq 2003 trying to find a Iraqi tank firing airburst rounds at it. Helicopter Wars: Videos - Duel In The Desert - National Geographic Channel - UK

Actually if you watch the whole thing it kind of proves the point more. Tank spent 30? minutes shooting at the helicopter with airburst rounds before the helicopter could find it and still failed to shoot it down in the end being quickly taken out by TOWs from the moving helicopter.

Not that a tank can´t shoot a helicopter down but that its not as easy as it is in PR...

As for qinling, I could see one manpad just solving the problem instantly if the brit team actually planned ahead.

[DankE_SPB]

Actually if you watch the whole thing it kind of proves the point more. Tank spent 30? minutes shooting at the helicopter with airburst rounds before the helicopter could find it and still failed to shoot it down in the end being quickly taken out by TOWs from the moving helicopter.

What tank was that? if it was a T-62, it most likely didnt have laser range finder, this is alone huge con to the tank, in addition to ranging manually, you would have to count delay before explosion by yourself, then set this time manually too(if there was such option at all).

Modern tanks have accurate range finder, programmable air-burst munitions, proximity fuse(Ainet, M830A1, APAM etc), some even has missiles, in the end of the day they start to look like early AA shells/missiles, so low level not fast helicopter wont be safe against them and you cant compare it to the described in video situation.

[Cheditor]

I was mainly trying to point out that you can't say Helicopters should NEVER be shot down by tanks.

[Rudd]

Not that a tank can´t shoot a helicopter down but that its not as easy as it is in PR...

thats true, however I think thats mainly to do with the turret control systems we use, if there was a reliable way to decrease the speed of the turret's movement, I'd take it...but variable sensitivity mouses make that a problem.

[Rhino]

In reply to the main item in this topic:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f196-p ... birds.html

The WZ-11 will be replaced eventually by the Z-9 or Z-9WA.

I was mainly trying to point out that you can't say Helicopters should NEVER be shot down by tanks.

Not really true tbh. Tanks can and do shoot down choppers in r/l, even tank shells are designed to take out choppers. Its just much more unlikely in r/l than it is in PR simply because of the view distance.

For some reason its been removed off youtube but there was a good documentary of Attack Lynx's (with TOW missiles) in Iraq and about this dual a T-62 had with the Lynx and where the Lynx only just won after something like a 15 or 20 min dual where the tank was hiding and was throwing loads of air burst shells at the Lynx, only just missing. The Lynx is also a very small and fast chopper so much harder to hit than most.

EDIT: lol, vid has already been linked but it still a big factor that Tanks can easily kill helicopters if given the chance Attack Choppers are effective aginst tanks in r/l due to there weapons being able to out range a tank + they can use the terrain to there advantage more easily.

[badmojo420]

Brits get landrovers still? Load up an AA team(one guy with AA kit, and couple guys with ammo bags) in one of those, drive to the LZ, and profit! Of course this requires the chopper pilots to sit on the runway and wait for the AA team to get into position, something that might prove too difficult for some pilots.

Also, the 50cal turrets will make minced meat out of any small helicopter. As a chopper pilot, when you see those tracers coming at you, you run for the hills.