what don't you get?

[zebra.actual]

I have a suspicion that non-serious people won't read this entire post. If you're not serious, and don't crave knowledge, go away......




















Are the non-serious people gone yet?

Is it you don't know what to do when other don't have microphones? Perhaps you don't know what kit layout your squad should have at all times? You don't know what to do when the enemy squad flanks, ambushes you, what don't you get?

I'm squad leader most of the time I play, I've probably squad leaded for most of my Battlefield 2 and PR playing time. Most things come to me as 'duh, I wouldn't do it any other way'. Perhaps I'm awesome, or perhaps I have some insight that you do not. I digress...

So, what DON'T you understand about squad leading? What gives you the biggest problems when you attempt to squad lead? I could probably write up a 2-3 page guide on how to be bad, or how to be awesome, but in the end will anyone read it? Probably not. The chances of anyone even reading this whole post is very slim.

I want to help. What don't you get? What gives you problems with squad leading? Communications? Squad members? The thought of being responsible for whether or not the 5 other people in your squad have fun? Close quarter tactics? How to set up defenses at a certain area? When do I attack and when do I assault? How to make the best out of crappy circumstances? What is it?

"What the hell zebra?" You might be asking yourself. zebra has been told he does a damn good job at squad leading. zebra has never nor will ever have a 100% success rate, but he's fairly honest about what he does. When zebra does bad, he says 'my bad', never 'sorry'. zebra however, is tired of others not knowing how to squad lead, thus he made this post. zebras name is also never capitalized, even at the beginning of a sentence.

If you have ever played with me on TG, then I guess you know me and what I do. If not, then I guess we are strangers. Hello, my name is zebra, what's yours?

[Foxxy]

zebra(though ive only played with you a couple of times) are a great squad leader and you know how a firefight works


I on the other hand with PR being my first teamwork game and me only playing it for a couple of months, I hate squad leading but , I seem to get everyone killed or rage quit because of my fail tactics most of the time. Other times when i squad lead everyone has fun and we end up with a great K/D and score. Therefore i prefer to be a squad member preferably a medic in the squad... I guess I just havent played the game long enough to know how to keep six guys alive

[Peeta]

I can lead a squad until we someone shoots at us, then my abilities go to fluff

[Oskar]

I've been squad leading ever since I started playing PR a year ago. I consider myself to be fairly good at it.

One of the things I DON'T know how to do is how to lead inexperienced or "new" players effectively. What usually happens is I micromanage a bit too much with the newer players, because I like to have things a certain way. This usually just ends up getting the whole squad killed, though.
My mindset when playing with new players, is that I want to teach them how to play more effectively.
Would the best solution here be to instead of necessarily teaching them to do things a certain way (like I do now), simply let them do what they want, and give some general waypoints and such? Do you think this would make things more fun for them, and would it be more effective?



With more experienced players, I don't have to micromanage, usually. I can focus more on overall tactics, the battlefield situation, marking targets, etc.

[Brainlaag]

I'm a calm guy, I take it easy and don't yell at anyone.
When I lead usually it ends up like this:
I tell my guys what to do, which kit they have to take and what the plan is, if the don't obey I tell them again and after that, if the still don't obey, I kick them from the sq. That s why I usually end there with 2 guys in my sq dying and respawning the whole round.
My biggest problem IMO is that I don't put enough effort in keeping the sq together. -->Brainlaag

Apart from my lack of tactics jk

[ZephyrDark]

That main thing about Squad Leading I have a problem with is the fact I can't really plan ahead and predict whats going to happen. I don't always know when to give what orders or when to advance or stay put and hold our ground.

The problem with other SLs that I have, personally, is that a lot of the time you get these SLs who just don't know when to stop, fall back, rethink the strategy and decide whether its worth attempting for a flag thats been lost. A good example would be mainly when players are on either Asad Khal or Kozelsk and they treat it like a normal Conventional vs. Conventional AAS map, when its not. On those maps it is very risky to attempt to recapture a flag (as the Militia or Hamas) that has been lost due to the superiority of the opposing forces tech and weapons (Russia/IDF).

A more in depth example of this would be if Russia takes the Underground Facility (can't think of the actual name of the flag) on the Eastern part of the map and puts a good defence in there. Then the militia team, treating it like they NEED to recapture flags to win send a constant flow of troops there, constantly losing tickets due to the Russians having a solid defence. Even though they keep losing men, those few squads still don't normally get that, even if they recap that flag, its not going to impart a "bleed" and help them win, yes, it may be a good place to easily remove a chunk of the Russian force's tickets and help them win, but is it really worth the cost in tickets? (Also, if they took it before, the chances are you are going to lose it again, and then the process restarts and you lose the game).

My point is as I stated before, a lot of Squad Leaders don't seem to have the patience these days to just hold back and defend, they don't know when a tactic is failing and they need to rethink what they're doing, or they're "KDR happy" and go hunting just to kill people.
/rant sort of

[zebra.actual]

This is going to be a fairly long response, so I will try to keep it as short for each response as possible.

I can lead a squad until we someone shoots at us, then my abilities go to fluff

1) Return fire
1.5) Take cover

1.5 ONLY happens if you cannot eliminate enough of the enemy so that others in your squad can maneuver into position to flank and destroy the enemy. You have 30 seconds MAX to act before you whole is wiped between 1 and 1.5. Take cover fast and return fire faster.

2) Heal the wounded
3) Flank and destroy the enemy
4) Pick up the dead
5) Continue to your objective

One of the things I DON'T know how to do is how to lead inexperienced or "new" players effectively.

You need to establish right out the front gates what they know and don't know. Do you know about the deviation system? How to patch? What crates are? How to request kits from crates? How to suppress? etc. Once you establish what they do or don't know, you can figure out from there whether or not you can put them into a position that will endanger the squad or not. Positions such as Medics and SAWs are not positions that new players should be doing, for example.

My mindset when playing with new players, is that I want to teach them how to play more effectively.

Doing this is great and I do the same thing. You cannot however let teaching someone dictate the tempo of your squads actions. If you need to defend an objective, defend it, if you need to assault, assault it. Teaching should take a back burner to all other things that fall in front of your eyes. Do not get tunnel vision and only make it about teaching him (or possibly her I guess) how to play the game. If the person has an outstanding round, they are going to learn and you just made them want more. Keep it fun, keep the game real and on task. If you do this, in time, they will learn. Just remember you won't be able to teach them how to be awesome in one round.

Mistakes cannot be undone, apologies cannot make mistakes go away, they only make the party who was harmed or burdened by the mistake feel slightly better. Learn from mistakes. Learn from your mistakes and don't make the same mistakes others just made.

"everything is a lesson for the future"

Would the best solution here be to instead of necessarily teaching them to do things a certain way (like I do now), simply let them do what they want, and give some general waypoints and such? Do you think this would make things more fun for them, and would it be more effective?

It depends on what you are teaching them to do and how long it's going to take. Going to take 10 seconds? Sure. Going to take 10 minutes? Probably not. Letting them do whatever they want is probably one of the worst things you can do. They're not going to grasp what Project Reality is all about. Keep game play objective based and stuff simple. I wouldn't want a learning lesson where we went over 1,000 years of human history in a matter of hours just as I wouldn't want an over view of the workings of Project Reality in under two hours. The knowledge won't stick. Learning takes time.

My biggest problem IMO is that I don't put enough effort in keeping the sq together.

You don't have to be 'not laid back' to tell people what to do. "you need to stay with the squad or I'm kicking you". It should only take a one time of you telling this to someone before they all catch on that you want to have fun, but you also don't want to get wiped because someone in your squad decided they wanted to play rambo.

That main thing about Squad Leading I have a problem with is the fact I can't really plan ahead and predict whats going to happen. I don't always know when to give what orders or when to advance or stay put and hold our ground.

You can burn 6,000-7,000 calories a day by SITTING and looking at a board and moving around pieces of wood (chess). The human brain is capable of a lot of things. While playing try running through "what if's". What if's are basically "what if we lose than flag two minutes from now?" - have a plan for that, even if 90% of that stuff you 'what if' does not happen, you already have a vague idea of what you what to do. It should take mere seconds to establish what route you what to take, what kit list you want and who's doing what with who. I probably run through 10 'what if's' before the game timer even runs out and the game begins.

Keep yourself on your feet at all times and be constantly thinking. Constantly.

The problem with other SLs that I have, personally, is that a lot of the time you get these SLs who just don't know when to stop, fall back, rethink the strategy and decide whether its worth attempting for a flag thats been lost.

Getting pissed and blaming X squad for failing to realize that what they are doing is stupid won't solve a damn thing and will only get you side tracked from your current task at hand.

A few things you could do here.
1) Talk to them on mumble/through commander
2) Type in chat and tell X squad to get to X flag - this probably won't work
3) Take it upon yourself to go to X flag and accomplish X goal - the problem with this is if you are already doing X goal and need help then you some how have to convince the rest of the team that what you are currently doing is more important than what they are doing.

[Amir]

Well, the thing is, I've read alot of these "tutorials for uber-1337 squadleading!!1!11!" and most of them are just an expanded wall of characters of general knowledge. No details, no specific things.
I don't like squadleading at all, but sometimes I just want to go to the squadleader and give him a b*tchslap for the dumb sh*t he's doing.

I will read your tut if you write one, though I hope it's not a cassual one as the 1000x others here on the forums. =)

That main thin...nt sort of

Totally agree with you! Most people just don't understand that being in a defensive position
is a better option than just rush for the flag.

Merged posts, we have an edit button for a reason... - Jig

[ZephyrDark]

Getting pissed and blaming X squad for failing to realize that what they are doing is stupid won't solve a damn thing and will only get you side tracked from your current task at hand.

A few things you could do here.
1) Talk to them on mumble/through commander
2) Type in chat and tell X squad to get to X flag - this probably won't work
3) Take it upon yourself to go to X flag and accomplish X goal - the problem with this is if you are already doing X goal and need help then you some how have to convince the rest of the team that what you are currently doing is more important than what they are doing.

The only problem is, not a lot of people go commander, and I may not want to go myself, especially mid round and leave my squad just to command more squads. I don't normally get pissed or blame "X squad", it just bothers me that when a squad's tactic isn't working, a good amount of the time I still see them do the same exact thing. They don't sit back and rest for a while and think out what is going on, and how they need to accomplish their goal or if it is even worth accomplishing. Whenever I squad lead on AAS I am normally a defense kind of player, but I will attack if I am needed to or if my squad gets utterly bored (including myself sometimes) and another squad can relieve mine. Recently I've noticed that most teams end up having a defending force of about 8-10 people and an attacking for of 20+, and then they're surprised when the small defending force is over run by the enemy and we lose the flag. Then only one squad returns while the rest fight for the now uncappable flag instead of falling back and taking back whats lost. People are too focused on the assault these days and they forget that they need to defend the territory they have just taken.

[zebra.actual]

and most of them are just an expanded wall of characters of general knowledge. No details, no specific things.

You can only get so specific before you have to write up a guide on how to tackle EVERY possible scenario that could happen. There is a tipping point where you need to get a feel for the game and handle certain situations in a certain way. No guide is going to give you all the answers, regardless of how well written or the contents it contains.

What problems if any, do you have with squad leading?

stuff

I meant talk to x squad through an existing commander, not go commander.

I find that having a small force defending and the main force attacking works best. You however have to have 1-2 full squads or squad + CAS/armor of sorts. When the small defending force taking ANY sort of contact or spots enemies the QRF (Quick Reaction Force) squad(s) are called back to mop stuff up and then push out again. Having 2-3 squads defending is not an ideal situation, but is unavoidable at times.

I didn't address the main part I meant to, but you cannot change the way others SL, so try and focus on yourself and your objectives for the most part.

[dtacs]

What is this thread supposed to be? It looks like got created with the intent to be one of those victimless rants but turned into a spontaneous squad leader caucus. I'm confused, can you explain this purpose of this thread to me in one sentence?

Squad leading is simple. You have it or you don't. How do I know? I'm a good squad leader. If I could have it my way, those who tried and failed the first time wouldn't be able to do it again.

People taking it into deep deep guides that are at least a page long or have stupid tactics like lining the squad up against a wall are just stupid and degenerative to new squad leaders joining in the process.

[google]

I'm guessing this is a rant thread because you lost several games in a row as commander last night. If so, just realise this: sometimes the enemy team is better than your team. I tried to lead a bunch of people who simply had no discipline and were over-all not very good. Even when you are constantly dealing out orders and even baby-sitting players (telling them what angles they should be covering even though they aren't, constantly telling people to cover for revives, etc.), more experienced players are better at the gamey aspects of PR. This can not be helped, accept this.

You are also not a the god of squad leading, don't be so patronizing.

[Zegel]

dtacs, I'm actually having more trouble discerning the point of your post than zebras. But after clicking on the links you posted, I found a little bit of insight into your posting habits (Read the first response), in that you're a unconstructive antagonist, and a bit of a ****. This is an open thread about helping those with questions about leading a squad - if you don't have anything to contribute, fluff off.

I've lead squads next to zebra several times on TG, and frankly, I'm glad its him disseminating a bit of know-how and I think this thread should've been made a long time ago.

[zebra.actual]

I'm confused, can you explain this purpose of this thread to me in one sentence?

Sure. The discussion of what squad leaders have problems with and in turn possible ways to fix them so that those with issues/problems/questions can get them answered.

I'm guessing this is a rant thread because you lost several games in a row as commander last night.

I lost one round out of three last night, not several. It's not a rant. I want more people to step up and squad lead.

Also, if anyone else has anything to add to this regarding peoples 'I don't get this..' feel free to answer, because as stated in my first post I don't have all the answers, I simply want to help.

[ytman]

Though the Original Post may lack humility the fact that the poster is trying to be proactive and helpful remains. Googol and Dtacs, before you posted and created a divergent subject people were asking specific questions about issues when squad leading. It was being helpful to some.

Take this thread for what it is: a person offering and giving advice. If a person feels that he is capable of giving advice of course hes going to act as if he knows what he's talking about (cause he should).


-------

Personally, as a Squad Leader, I find it really hard to keep my squad organized at times. I give kits, missions, and ROEs. Sometimes a person strays ahead or stays behind or opens fire too soon and in someway compromises the mission.

How do you treat this? I try to point it out and explain why an action lead to the compromise. Some times I feel as if I'm coming off as too harsh.

For example just this last night on Falujah, I pointed out hostile locations and told my squad to assemble in a general area. No issue to move out was given yet a soldier who was following basic orders well and over all was a good asset took it upon himself to move out and then get shot. Eventually, we recovered but the damaged had been done, we're were slowed down and three of us could not get shot within two minutes without fatal results.

I asked him what he was doing and he gave a plausible reason, and I felt as if it was my fault for not shepereding him right... how can I handle these situations correctly and prevent them from happening.

[Ford_Jam]

I want more people to step up and squad lead.

Not gonna happen, I think a lot of people see the SL role as very intimidatory and might be afraid of making a mistake especially if they're doing it properly, rather than just making a squad to whore limited kits and not really contribute.
Some may try it half a dozen times and realise it isnt for them as it can be a very stressful role and can be simply... not fun.

Those that do make legitimate squads and contribute to team goals and also communicate via every way possiple, kudos!

[dtacs]

dtacs, I'm actually having more trouble discerning the point of your post than zebras. But after clicking on the links you posted, I found a little bit of insight into your posting habits (Read the first response), in that you're a unconstructive antagonist, and a bit of a ****.

My point? Saying that answering the questions of SL's having leadership problems isn't going to help. You can't teach someone to lead in my eyes, they have it or they don't. Giving them the answer to their problem lacks the sincerity of them handling it them-self.

Example, you can't handle the squad in combat, I tell you to do this this and that as a remedy. Now, each time you institute that in said situation, its going to the the same rigmarole without any self-input or flavor.

That is a more lengthy explanation of 'if you don't think you can lead or you have any major self-doubt in your abilities, don't lead'

This is an open thread about helping those with questions about leading a squad

Could have made that a little clearer. A thread title of 'Answers to squad leader problems' would be a good start. And if you have a personal problem with my posts, report them or put me on your ignore list. I do appreciate your up-front attitude though.

And I could have gone into length about how 'transformational leadership' is utterly useless in an online game. But KISS fits what I wanted to say.

You are also not a the god of squad leading, don't be so patronizing.

This too. You're a good squad leader Zebra, and I'm sure you know humility is important.

[zebra.actual]

This too. You're a good squad leader zebra, and I'm sure you know humility is important.

The whole initial post was </jokes>. I wrote it to break the ice, it seemed clever at the time, still does. The fact that multiple individuals took it as if I was taunting or making myself seem awesome or better than others is their problem, not mine. Clearly if you think you know me, you don't. Please quit gauging the initial post as if I were calling myself "god" (to quote some - out of context of course) in any of my posts NEVER have I called myself better than other squad leaders or other individuals for that matters. NEVER have I claimed to 'have all of the answers'.

Opinions have already been formed, and minds made. Move on if you have nothing else to add to the topic at hand. If you wish to continue discussion about how I need more 'humility', shoot me a PM.

"no better, no less, than all the rest."

Cheers.

[karambaitos]

-------

Personally, as a Squad Leader, I find it really hard to keep my squad organized at times. I give kits, missions, and ROEs. Sometimes a person strays ahead or stays behind or opens fire too soon and in someway compromises the mission.

How do you treat this? I try to point it out and explain why an action lead to the compromise. Some times I feel as if I'm coming off as too harsh.

For example just this last night on Falujah, I pointed out hostile locations and told my squad to assemble in a general area. No issue to move out was given yet a soldier who was following basic orders well and over all was a good asset took it upon himself to move out and then get shot. Eventually, we recovered but the damaged had been done, we're were slowed down and three of us could not get shot within two minutes without fatal results.

I asked him what he was doing and he gave a plausible reason, and I felt as if it was my fault for not shepereding him right... how can I handle these situations correctly and prevent them from happening.

same probs xD people start thinking for them selves and they think they know best and thats why my squad gets side tracked almost everymap, honestly most times i would do better if i was SLing a bunch of bots at least they do what they are told.

[goguapsy]

WEll, I don't get one thing, how do you make other SLs like you?