BVR Fire

[Andy[EEF]]

To me the simple addition of something that makes possible to know if I'm being Locked by an SAM or an aircraft would make BVR combat become perfect... Something like a simplified RWR, HUD or different sound alerts for both threats.

RWR

If it was possible i'm sure they would have already implemented a RWR on vehicles that have them. The problem is that there is only one type of tracking missiles in PR, and it's heat tracking- the BF2 engine can't disciminate to what type of missile is fired/locked onto you. Even the AIM-120/R77 missiles in PR are still set as heat seeking, as there isn't a function for radar guided missiles in PR.

This is as well as the fact that in reality you don't even get a warning from the RWR if someone fires a heat seeking missile like the SA-9 at you, unless the firing aircraft/AAV also has a radar lock to slave the heatseeker in the missile to your aircraft.

[NyteMyre]

Is this a case of Streisand Effect?
I mean, BVR fire exists since vBF2 and I've seen it happen in PR since i play it (0.5).... but now i almost see it every round whenever possible. And people are NOW complaining about it in servers.

[[FIN]Viper]

Since the BVR has become so 'famous' in the PR community I think there is always atleast one person in a squad to know what's hitting the whole squad so this thread has already served some of its purpose..

[Alex6714]

;1435870']

This is as well as the fact that in reality you don't even get a warning from the RWR if someone fires a heat seeking missile like the SA-9 at you, unless the firing aircraft/AAV also has a radar lock to slave the heatseeker in the missile to your aircraft.

I am pretty sure this depends on the defense suite the aircraft has, as some will detect incoming threats that aren´t radar guided.

For example:

http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/HIDAS_dsh.pdf

Helicopter Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (HIDAS) (United Kingdom) - Jane's Radar And Electronic Warfare Systems

. The Sky Guardian 2000 RWR detects and identifies threat radars (and operating modes such as surveillance, target acquisition, target tracking and missile guidance) within the 2 to 20 GHz (extendable to 0.5 to 40 GHz if required) frequency band. The 1223 LWR detects a range of laser threats (including range finders, target markers and laser beam riding missiles) and is claimed to offer a 'proven' laser beam rider detection capability. For its part, the AN/AAR-57 MWS detects the ultra-violet component within missile exhaust plumes and ascertains whether or not the particular missile detected is a direct threat to its host platform.

[Andy[EEF]]

I am pretty sure this depends on the defense suite the aircraft has, as some will detect incoming threats that aren´t radar guided.

For example:

http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/HIDAS_dsh.pdf

Helicopter Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (HIDAS) (United Kingdom) - Jane's Radar And Electronic Warfare Systems

I know that systems like HIDAS exist and can detect IR and laser guided missile launches. But what my point was, is that in PR there is only IR guided missiles- and the majority of the aircraft in game don't have a complex system like HIDAS on them in reality anyway. So really, you shouldn't be getting any kind of "lock on" warning from them. Unfortunatley the BF2 engine doesn't understand that though, so you can't really tell what threat is "locking on" to you.

Although I would like to see a system like HIDAS saying "Missile launch, east, far" (like in the British AH-1 apache) to the pilot, it's just not possible in the BF2 engine because all the information you can get is just that you're being locked on by *something*, be it a shoulder launched SAM or a MiG-29, it can't tell the difference.

Edit:
Back on topic-
I think that the only problem with BVR fire as it is now, is that the targets have no idea what is hitting them. This can be a good and a bad thing- they don't know where it is coming from, keeping the vehicle sort of safer than if they could see a line of tracers coming from it, but even if you could see the tracers, it means that if your team haven't got any air assets available, if an apache or havoc is spraying with cannon from above cloud level- you can't attack it back. But then again, if your team looses all their air assets, I suppose they deserve to be owned by the other team's air assets..

Anyway- i think the solution should not be to remove the 3d markers and prevent BVR fire from happening- just fix the tracer/explosion effects to render for the other team.

[ediko]

How about giving the infantry something to fight back with? Make their hand-held aa the same range the helicopter cannons have. But then again it would be too easy to shoot down helicopters and planes with them. But I'm pretty certain that if a helicopter can use their cannon at the infantry than infantry's portable aa's can easily lock on to it. But here is a idea. Make the cannon have less range ( so that you actually see or hear the stuff that shoots at you) and make (or keep, I don't know since I almost never fly in PR) missiles have range across all map like they do in real life (well not really but the maps ain't big enough to portray the ranges correctly).

So am I totally wrong as I almost always am

[Hunt3r]

The problem is that now we're trying to balance things in the game without putting it in perspective in reality. In reality, cannons have a 3-4 km range, at best. This is about the range of your standard MANPAD. Hellfires have about an 8 km range. So either we scale things in very strange ways, with AA missiles only being able to lock and fire at 500 meters away, or we end up using a cannon on aircraft to achieve standoff when the missiles should be doing this.

IMO for now just limit the max distance of the cannon rounds to about the same distance as the Hellfire, make the distance at which one can view heat targets with MANPADs and SHORAD to be 600 meters, and make attack helicopters be better able to employ their munitions in standoff, rather than acting as an artillery platform.

[llRvXll]

In the current game, the cobra just waits for the laser, dive on the laser lauching all his hellfires like a machinegun (loL) and it get back to rearm, hover over the city searching for targets is kinda impossible, it always gets killed by HATs.

[Hunt3r]

Yes, current tactics basically dictate that you spam as if it's an 8 round volley artillery, lobbing all the rockets and cannon you can before you go to about 300 and bug out.

[dtacs]

In the current game, the cobra just waits for the laser, dive on the laser lauching all his hellfires like a machinegun (loL) and it get back to rearm, hover over the city searching for targets is kinda impossible, it always gets killed by HATs.

Which is why BVR is the superior tactic.

>BVR with help of spotter taking out AA threats
>Come in, launch absolutely everything and use all flares on the way in and out
>Profit.

Something tells me with Jaymz's comment we might see the abolition of BVR in the release.

[Jaymz]

My comment was about several realism inspired features that will vastly increase the lethality of Attack Helicopters. They'll be disclosed at a time when all the people who worked on them see fit.

[crot]

It works fine for now. But sometimes you cant see the enemy tracers of bullets, so you feel like being killed out of no where. That is the only annoying thing about it.

[Andy[EEF]]

My comment was about several realism inspired features that will vastly increase the lethality of Attack Helicopters. They'll be disclosed at a time when all the people who worked on them see fit.

Well this has me intrested. Is this perhaps several combined arms inspired attack helicopter features..? I wonder.

[Kain888]

My comment was about several realism inspired features that will vastly increase the lethality of Attack Helicopters. They'll be disclosed at a time when all the people who worked on them see fit.

Your recent comments like this make me intrigued. :>

[Sniperdog]

Your recent comments like this make me intrigued. :>

[ediko]

The problem is that now we're trying to balance things in the game without putting it in perspective in reality. In reality, cannons have a 3-4 km range, at best. This is about the range of your standard MANPAD. Hellfires have about an 8 km range. So either we scale things in very strange ways, with AA missiles only being able to lock and fire at 500 meters away, or we end up using a cannon on aircraft to achieve standoff when the missiles should be doing this.

IMO for now just limit the max distance of the cannon rounds to about the same distance as the Hellfire, make the distance at which one can view heat targets with MANPADs and SHORAD to be 600 meters, and make attack helicopters be better able to employ their munitions in standoff, rather than acting as an artillery platform.

Well actually 4km is the possible range, you won't hit anything at such distance. You need to close in to at least 2km which is in fact in rage of manpad's. That's the whole point. I find it ok if a helicopter shoots guided missiles from afar it's the cannons that are not really realistic. If a helicopter is engaging with it's cannons than the area has to be clear of AA, otherwise they should be like a long range sniper rifle. Right now you can put a marker on enemy and the helicopter can shoot it's canon from the other side of the map. It just doesn't make sense since IRL if a helicopter is going in with a canon attack it is a easy target for any AA defense. Good solution would be to make it's cannon incredibly inaccurate at ranges more than say 1km but I doubt the engine can handle this.

Well let's just see what solution the devs have found!

[burghUK]

BVR TOW fire is the bane of my life. I would gladly take a **** on the doorstep of whoever these incredibly annoying individuals are.

[Hitman.2.5]

This is just another reason to remove 3d markers in the game world, and keep them on the minimap only.

I don't accept the RL ranges arguement because we don't have radar, we don't have javelins, we don't have etc etc.

We are in a minature version of reality, we have to accept the technical limitations of BF2.

in this instance we should be looking at what gives the best gameplay, and I think BVR with a spotter is great gameplay, magic marker BVR is not.

how can BVR be achieved when you don't know what to aim at? the only way BVR works is by using that marker?

I agree that it is unrealistic but so are a few thing that were put in for game plays sake

[NyteMyre]

In Forgotten Hope, doesn't the 3D marker show up only less then 500m or something?
Isn't that a possibility instead of removing it?

(dunno if that's mentioned already, didn't read whole thread)


I hate to see the 3D marker removed, it's kinda equivalent of pointing at something which isn't possible in the game.
A bit of the same why we still have names above each avatar, since we can't recognize people from their faces.

[=Romagnolo=]

Other, Please Explain


So I'll explain.

BVR is good, but it needs something to give the shooter a little disavantage. I suggest ballistic. I know it is hard to put realistic ballistics in BF2 engine, but there should be a big bullet drop for APC, tanks and helicopters.