Tow HMMV, Crewman kit required

[Bringerof_D]

[quote=""'="]H[=CubCadet1972;1436056']The T.O.W. Requires specialized training to operate IRL. A crewman kit for the gunner would signify the specialized training required to properly operate a T.O.W.

This would probably apply to deployed T.O.W.s as well.[/quote]

specialized training which is available to infantrymen. Again the point is that the Russians might not train their infantry to use the spandrell, where the US military has that training available to their infantry. the TOW and humvee are both classified as infantry weapons, the BRDM2 and spandrell are probably classified by the Russian military as armor.

[quote="Kim Jong ill""]From this if you cannot grasp the concept that TOW Humvees are not some toy of the infantry to play with and are an asset much the same as an MBT or AAV then once again, you are seriously deluded.[/quote]

no the TOW is not a basic infantry toy, but nonetheless it is an INFANTRYMAN who uses it. THE TRAINING IS AVAILABLE TO INFANTRY BECAUSE IT IS MOUNTED INFANTRY WHO USE THIS ASSET THE MAN ON THE TOW REGARDLESS OF TRAINING LEVEL IS STILL AN INFANTEER AND FIGHTS WITH HIS RIFLE FIRST AND FOREMOST. The TOW humvee is an anti armor vehicle desgned from the ground up as an infantry vehicle. it is as such used by infantry.

then comes the cocept of the BRDM2 IT WAS DESIGNED AS AN APC, THE BRDM2 Spandrell is an APC and thus the the crew are all armored vehicle crewman.

in short Armor vehicle operation training is NOT available to infantry, while operation of a light vehicle and an anti vehicle weapon is as well as the training to use the two in conjunction. requiring a crewman kit to operate the TOW would mean that that man is now stuck as a vehicle crewman where as IRL that same man in any dismounted situation would be an infantryman.

[Kim Jong ill]

And I have no doubt that you know how to operate them, but operating a peice of machinery obviously is only one tiny part of the make-up of employing a successful and effective TOW Humvee. The same goes for a MBT, APC or AAV I don't doubt that any infantryman with time spare on his hands could learn how to operate the machinery, but the nuances of effective tactical employment? Perhaps not.

This is project reality, I see no reason why in reality the control of a TOW Humvee would handed over to under trained infantry.

Edit - Right good job of ignoring everything I've posted. Training to drive a vehicle + training to operate a stationary weapon system /= sufficient training to operate and employ a weapon system based around said components.

[Rabbit]

And I have no doubt that you know how to operate them, but operating a peice of machinery obviously is only one tiny part of the make-up of employing a successful and effective TOW Humvee.

That's why we have rank structure who tells us what to do. I mean granted there are basics, but in case of insurgent attacks pretty much hull down, 5 and 25 and go from there..

[Kim Jong ill]

I'm trying to see your point of view, but this isn't about insurgent attacks. This is about the employment of a antiarmour asset at the battalion, company and platoon level. This asset is not an organic form of fire support, such as mortar crew, Javelin fire team or TOW fire team. It is a corps asset, it is specially trained to perform it's duty either on it's own or in conjunction with a combined arms force. When it's support is required it is either attached to a division at battalion level or it's subunits are attached to friendly units at the company and platoon levels.

[Rabbit]

I'm trying to see your point of view, but this isn't about insurgent attacks. This is about the employment of a antiarmour asset at the battalion, company and platoon level. This asset is not an organic form of fire support, such as mortar crew, Javelin fire team or TOW fire team. It is a corps asset, it is specially trained to perform it's duty either on it's own or in conjunction with a combined arms force. When it's support is required it is either attached to a division at battalion level or it's subunits are attached to friendly units at the company and platoon levels.

I'm failing to see your point, Ill read it again later after sleep.

[Bringerof_D]

And I have no doubt that you know how to operate them, but operating a peice of machinery obviously is only one tiny part of the make-up of employing a successful and effective TOW Humvee. The same goes for a MBT, APC or AAV I don't doubt that any infantryman with time spare on his hands could learn how to operate the machinery, but the nuances of effective tactical employment? Perhaps not.

This is project reality, I see no reason why in reality the control of a TOW Humvee would handed over to under trained infantry.

Edit - Right good job of ignoring everything I've posted. Training to drive a vehicle + training to operate a stationary weapon system /= sufficient training to operate and employ a weapon system based around said components.

No no, not under trained infatry, Mounted infatry operate light vehicles such as the humvee, as such they are taught (since it is in their trade to use them) vehicle tactics. Mounted infantry and your basic front line infantry are very different, however for the sake of not having 50 differnt types of infantry kits and 90-100 diferent crewman kits for APCs, tanks and various types of navy personell, PR sticks with just infantry.

NO TOW training isn't "standard" for infantry, why the hell would they force an infantryman stuck in a unit which will never see a TOW to learn how to use one? No these courses are optional. Similarly i joined the CF as a vehicle crewman, as such i can learn how to operate all types of vehicles, i can learn all of them, or just learn how to use a specific one. If my unit only has Gwagons then i would only need to learn how to use that to be effective, however i can apply for courses which will teach me how to operate a leopard (assuming i earn my place on the ladder.) This then means that if i were to deploy in an area where my home unit is not, i can be embedded with a tank corps and be useful there.

[Kim Jong ill]

No no, not under trained infatry, Mounted infatry operate light vehicles such as the humvee, as such they are taught (since it is in their trade to use them) vehicle tactics. Mounted infantry and your basic front line infantry are very different, however for the sake of not having 50 differnt types of infantry kits and 90-100 diferent crewman kits for APCs, tanks and various types of navy personell, PR sticks with just infantry.

A TOW Humvee is not considered a light vehicle in the sense that a normal Humvee is, I have already shown this. A antiarmor platoon may be attached to an infantry company but this does not change their status as a support asset, TOW Humvees are a support asset much in the same essence as a MBT or AAV, the size and weight of their vehicle does not effect their operational standing.

Edit - Please just read the Field Manual, because it is fairly obvious that you haven't and until you have you cannot make an informed opinion on the subject.

Edit 2 - The latter part of your post on serves to prove my point, that you would need to be a vehicle crewmen in order to operate these assets, end of story.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

I know they do, I'm just saying they come back and tell you what they learned, so if need be anyone can use it...

I mean this as no insult to you, but "they come back and tell you what they learned, so if need be anyone can use it" doesn't mean that the Army rates you qualified to operate such a specialized vehicle.

There is ample proof here that the TOW HMMV is not assigned to basic boots, and requires specialized training. Requiring a crewman kit for at least the gunner would keep in line with actual military doctrine.

[Bringerof_D]

A TOW Humvee is not considered a light vehicle in the sense that a normal Humvee is, I have already shown this. A antiarmor platoon may be attached to an infantry company but this does not change their status as a support asset, TOW Humvees are a support asset much in the same essence as a MBT or AAV, the size and weight of their vehicle does not effect their operational standing.

Edit - Please just read the Field Manual, because it is fairly obvious that you haven't and until you have you cannot make an informed opinion on the subject.

Edit 2 - The latter part of your post on serves to prove my point, that you would need to be a vehicle crewmen in order to operate these assets, end of story.

you're missing my point entirely, being a support asset doesn't change the fact that it is operated by INFANTRY. Mortars are operated by, you guessed it, INFANTRY.

[Rabbit]

H[=CubCadet1972;1436901']I mean this as no insult to you, but "they come back and tell you what they learned, so if need be anyone can use it" doesn't mean that the Army rates you qualified to operate such a specialized vehicle.

It's not a qualification. It's a "in a worst case scenario if you EVER have to use this, this is how it works. So we all know.

[Rissien]

and short of a 'worst case scenario' unless your qualified to use it, you wont.

[Rabbit]

H[=Rissien;1437038']and short of a 'worst case scenario' unless your qualified to use it, you wont.

Exactly. For example. Oh no, no ones combat effective in the two humvee because of an ied. but we REALLY need that tow up.

[=]H[=CubCadet1972]

Exactly. For example. Oh no, no ones combat effective in the two humvee because of an ied. but we REALLY need that tow up.

That is why the crewman kit is completely appropriate for this vehicle.

[Rabbit]

H[=CubCadet1972;1437102']That is why the crewman kit is completely appropriate for this vehicle.

I don't see how though, If you have a tank rollin at you and your TOW gunner goes down you can bet your sweet *** someone will get on that TOW. lol

[TH3_BL4CK]

I don't see how though, If you have a tank rollin at you and your TOW gunner goes down you can bet your sweet *** someone will get on that TOW. lol

Yeah and because it takes so long to press Q and request a crewman's kit.
Even if a tank rolled over the hill it takes like 30 seconds for the tow to warm up and unless the tank gunner has some kind of mental disability good luck trying to use that tow in time...

Honestly i think this Humvee should get this crewman limitation just like the avenger it makes allot of sense considering not every average Joe in the Defense force knows how to use one..

[Hunt3r]

Well I'm pretty sure that it's rather simple to operate a TOW. Stop the vehicle, make sure there isn't something that would catch on the wire, and give it a go.

[Bringerof_D]

It's not a qualification. It's a "in a worst case scenario if you EVER have to use this, this is how it works. So we all know.

and of course in PR by the amount of people who die in combat this is a dire situation, the main crews are dead, after your first life every guy is a replacement.

[LithiumFox]

How about instead of making it a crewman, we make it the engineer OR crewman who can use the TOW.

That way you can still be an infantryman, but still make it a required class, being that a crewman could quite possibly know how to use a tow as well as everything else, and that the engineer is a TOW trained infantry-man.

???

There, compromise > >

[Rabbit]

How about instead of making it a crewman, we make it the engineer OR crewman who can use the TOW.

Best idea.

[ComradeHX]

How about instead of making it a crewman, we make it the engineer OR crewman who can use the TOW.

That way you can still be an infantryman, but still make it a required class, being that a crewman could quite possibly know how to use a tow as well as everything else, and that the engineer is a TOW trained infantry-man.

???

There, compromise > >

Why Engineer?

We can make it SL only so SL in the humvee gets a better view of the surroundings AND gets to be of use in a vehicle.